What If Bush Was Right…

02Jun08

OK, the title is a bit misleading, cause the fact is, this post is not about my opinion on who George Bush is.

But, this post is about your thoughts on an interesting article written as an editorial by the Washington Post today. The post is a pretty liberal source, and for them to write this either is foolish of them, or they are speaking the truth.

Basically…we look to be winning the war in Iraq, and the stance that our government has taken in dealing with the war seems to be proving to be correct.

Now, I don’t think anyone one here would be against us finishing this war and getting the heck out of there. But my thoughts turn to the upcoming elections now. Do you think, if the war is truly taking a turn for the better, that Obama is going to be politically hurt over this? Hillary could win from this(she supported the war), McCain will definitely win from this( He most definitely supports all aspects of it). But, Mr. Obama wants us to leave immediately(the repercussions could be horrendous) and he wants us to also lay down and cease building many of our weapons( that would be really interesting for our defense and others like Israel).

If Obama wins the nomination and the war is ending and we have won, can Obama still win the election?

Here is the article at the Post.

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74 Responses to “What If Bush Was Right…”

  1. Just because my son eventually cleans up the mess he made in the living room doesn’t mean the mess should have been there in the first place.

    The fact that we were deceived and rushed into this war, and subsequently botched royally, is reason enough for me to go with anyone who saw the writing on the wall beforehand.

    Welcome back from fishing!! 🙂

  2. Mudpuppy, I think that most people who were truly against this was from the beginning will react as you have. But, there is the majority that ebb and flow with opinion. Could be interesting.

  3. I voted for Bush twice and was in support of this war up until about 10 months ago(ish).

    I’m a changed man to be sure.

  4. I voted for Bush twice and served in Iraq from March 2003 to September 2003. I have also ebbed and flowed. I think Bush finally got it right when he tabbed Gen. Petraeus as the commander on the ground and eventually as the CENTCOM commander. Having served under him when he was commander of the 101st and what we did in Mosul and the plan he had for that city and the Ninevah province, I knew that he would turn the tide in Iraq. With all of the crying from the left side of the aisle that the surge was going to fail you do not hear much from them about the war because they know the surge is working. They do not want to draw attention to the mistake they made in questioning the surge so they have moved on to other issues like the economy and gas prices. The economy is going to be the real issue in the election unless it rebounds then Obama’s socialist agenda will not seem like the right way to go.

  5. 5 Tyler

    I think people don’t even care if we win or lose, because nobody knows what winning looks like. We cannot stop insurgent violence. That is impossible, so what does winning look like? I haven’t seen stats on this, but I don’t think support for the war has gone up dramatically since the surge. It might have gone up, but not dramatically. I still think McCain was his hard nosed stance in Iraq, has no chance. But the fact that the surge is helping has helped McCain, but I don’t think it is enough. Let me know if I’m ignorant.

  6. 6 chunque

    This is your answer to the question:

    http://www.stuffwhitedbagslike.wordpress.com

  7. I think Giant Idiot hit the nail on the head, it will not matter who is righter (punny 😉 ) about Iraq as long as the economy continues to suffer and gas prices continue to rise.

    I thought you were going to close with a twist… you know: If Obama wins the nomination and the war is ending and we have won and George Bush was right and Hilary was right (even though she says she was wrong), do you think it $5.00 per gallon is a fair price in today’s world economy?

  8. Giant Idiot, there is something to be said about the opinion of those that have been there and served there. I think you could teach us a lot.

    Tyler, there is definitely no ignorance there. I am truly curious of the perspectives from everyone. I think how we feel is how we should vote. I am concerned that many don’t know what they are truly feeling. However, you are one that knows.

    Chunque, welcome. I hopped over to your site and I am not sure how you really feel 🙂

    Ric, I tend to be with you guys on this. The economy is definitely more of an issue for me, however, I am not sure about the choices I am being given now. I don’t see spending as the answer and I don’t see socialism as ever helping the economy. I am going to have to run my posts by you to get that writers touch. Your ending would have been better 🙂

  9. 9 BuddyO

    do you think it $5.00 per gallon is a fair price in today’s world economy?

    Now there’s an interesting question… Personally, I liked it better when it was $2.00… but in the world economy? Most of the world would love $5.00 per gallon gas (especially with the weak dollar!).

    I was in Germany 2 years ago and rented a car for a week. We pay’d 4 and change Euro per LITER!!!

    As far as the war… I’m gald to see the surge is working, I didn’t doubt it would. Obama (and the media) have no clue of the complexities involved. Anything that keeps him from winning, I’m all for. Chris and I have been talking about him over at my place… Hillary would be bad, but Obama actually scares me…

  10. 10 Deborah

    My Mom’s heart wants this thing over before Mike deploys….my reasoning side knows it probably won’t…and shouldn’t because of the ramifications. Regardless of what’s happened up to this point, I think what happens from here on out is what’s important. Giant Idiot, I would love to hear more about this as well…the military guys I’ve spoken to really do believe in this country and their job over there.

  11. Buddy, I was thinking the same thing about what Ric said on the gas price. I am with you on being glad it’s working. I still struggle with how we got there.

    Hey Deb, I am so anxious to see Mike come home as well. I can’t imagine what’s on your heart everyday!

  12. With the risk of sounding ignorant, how would using more resources (including man-power) not be helpful in a military victory? I’ve always wondered why people are so proud to have figured that out.

    Maybe because so many that oppose the war don’t want anything to do with an increase in anything military, and that makes it a “see I told you!” situation. But seriously, how could a surge of troops not help a situation?

    (In all fairness, I didn’t care a lick about anything political until late last year. Now I’m fully engaged and trying to learn all I can about what it means to be a Christ follower in this process. The book God’s Politics has been very good for me lately.)

  13. Hey mud, I think the general consensus is that #1 We went in under false pretenses. That begins a whole world of thoughts and feelings over this. Then #2 the opinions of how to get it done.

    I agree that more troops would mean a better chance of victory. I have to think though, that walking away from this now would be worse. I hate to qualify human life as something that is expendable, cauae it’s not. But I am wondering if there would be more human risk if we were to walk away now, rather than ramp it up to get this thing done.

  14. We always had the military resources to succeed in Iraq but I don’t think we had the right leader. Gen. Petraeus was the right person to make Iraq a success. He showed it on a smaller scale in Mosul. Look at the incidents in Mosul when the 101st was there compared to the rest of the country. When he took over he was playing catch up because things were so messed up from the previous commander. He has a PhD from Princeton in International Relations and I know that does not make him great it gives him some knowledge on how to deal with a situation the situation in Iraq.

    I have plenty of stories about my time spent in Iraq and am just thinking of what I want to post about. There is serious and humorous subject matter and I need to find the right balance.

  15. Dude, definitely do a series of posts. the good and the bad. I think people need to hear from those directly involved and directly affected. It’s easy for us to speak her say and opinion, but you would have a lot of great info to teach us and share with us.

  16. 16 TheNorEaster

    “Do you think, if the war is truly taking a turn for the better, that Obama is going to be politically hurt over this? Hillary could win from this(she supported the war), McCain will definitely win from this( He most definitely supports all aspects of it). But, Mr. Obama wants us to leave immediately(the repercussions could be horrendous) and he wants us to also lay down and cease building many of our weapons( that would be really interesting for our defense and others like Israel). If Obama wins the nomination and the war is ending and we have won, can Obama still win the election?”

    This is like trying to discuss hurricane season with an insurance agent.

  17. Hahahaha!!!

    I love that response Noreaster. It’s a big mess in my mind…so that’s the best I could do to get it out of my head 🙂

  18. I am by no means demeaning your service Idiot, but I never thought I would see these words in writing referring to The GI. “I think you could teach us a lot.

  19. Brian I think that people need to hear from those in the front lines…even more than the reporters and news sources. Idiot was there. He knows. I know you agree with this, just putting some emphasis on it 🙂

  20. 20 Darla

    My brother served, and a good friend of my family (church family) is on his second tour as an officer in Iraq, the media doesn’t tell us all the good that is going on there.

    My first love committed suicide after the vietnam war..does anyone remember that and that it was not considered a war? The ramifications caused due to pull out and coming home defeated was insane. Almost all of his friends either died there or died here, an outpouring of suicide. This is my biggest concern with just pulling everyone out at once…they are doing a job, and good job at that. Our soliders are people not numbers, I esteem them!

    Sorry Mud puppy..I m scared of Obama, and the fact that most of America doesn’t know or remember what Socialism is..and he has some strong ideas that sound good, but socialism is how they come together. I could be wrong, been wrong before, and praying that I am.

    Thanks Idiot! You definitely need a new name…your a hero, thanks for serving your country that is full of idiots! 😆

  21. Yes I agree, it is just shocking 😯 to see it in written form. He can tell some tell about his tour.

  22. 22 TheNorEaster

    Darla:

    I’ve heard the so-called “socialism” argument against Obama and the Democrats before, but, I must confess, I don’t really understand it. From the point of view I am most familiar with, Americans pay their taxes and those who support Obama and the Democrats simply want a better return on that investment–for example, universal health care.

    Nobody pays $30,000 to buy a new car and expects to get just four tires. But, from one point of view, that is precisely what some people believe has happened with the government.

    So, can you explain that “socialist” point of view a bit more?

  23. I am ashamed to say that I was a supporter of the invasion of Iraq back in 2003. Thought I did NOT vote for Bush and Co., I was taken in by the administration claims of Iraq developing WMD’s. Once it became clear to me that this war was nothing more than the administration trying to install a puppet government in Iraq to secure American oil interests i turned vehemently against this entire enterprise.

    As much of an idealist as I would like to be i have to take a pragmatic view of the affairs of the volatile region that is the Middle East. To that end i will say this…

    Any American who thinks that Obama, if elected, is going immediately commence a draw down of the American presence in Iraq, needs to seriously have his or head examined my a mental professional.

    NOBODY who applies a little common sense to the problem can come to the conclusion that a complete withdrawal is possible much less practical. Were we to do such a thing the region would explode like a tinder box soaked in gasoline in Mohave desert! Nature abhors a vacuum and into the vacuum created by American departure would go Iran. The Saudi’s, feeling justifiably threatened by the Shite power at their border, would probably engage in formal hostilities against Iran. THEN comes the wildcard: Israel! What would Israel do to counter an emboldened Iran? Would they come to the Saudi’s aide? How would the rest of the Arab world respond to the Israeli response? In the midst of all this conflagration is the vital waterway of the Persian gulf through which a large percentage the fuel of the world economy runs on: OIL! What if that waterway becomes a war zone? Imagine the price of oil skyrocketing to $200 a barrel or higher?

    I’m sorry ladies and gentlemen, there will be NO withdrawal from Iraq anytime soon. As Colin Powell, before the invasion of Iraq: “Your break Iraq you own it!” Well Mr. Bush and his wretched administration did everything they could to get this precious little war including lying, deceiving and covering-up, now it is all of us who will pay and continue to pay for this fool hardy mission. What are its fruits? $125/barrel oil, eroded prestige because of our involvement in extraordinary rendition and the pompous arrogance of statements like “You’re with us or with the terrorists!, etc ad infinitum.

    I will support ANYONE who will kick to the curb the GOP who was long ago bought and paid for by Christian Dominionists, who have been trying to remake this country into some unholy hybrid of Christian Sharia and unrestrained capitalism.

    R.

  24. Darla, I have some of the same concerns, but not jut with Obama.

    NorEasgter, I won’t answer for Darla, but I can say it is not an Obama thing for me. It is a government control thing for me. The Republicans want to control our money, the democrats want to control our freedoms. I don’t like either of those options. The government needs to get back to doing it’s job, which essentially is defense (defending all aspects of life) and let us live.

    Robert, I can always count on you to lay it out there 🙂

    I am not politically smart. I only know what I read and hear from both sides of the aisle. What you have just written is truly your opinion, there is no other way to say it. I have my own fears…as a Christian…about how my life is being taken away by anti-Christian liberals. Also, these “Christian Dominionists” that you write about are not the leaders of th country they are voters. We don’t vote for or against the Christian right or the Liberal left…WE ARE the Christian right or the liberal left.

  25. Brent

    I don’t believe all Christians are dominionists.

    They are certain small percentage of who are Christian Reconstructionists who want to make Biblical law the law of the land i.e. Leviticus et al.

    I submit that most Christians would have problems with that.

    “my life is being taken away by anti-Christian liberals.”

    Can you give me an example of that?

    Just curious.

    R.

  26. Robert, to go along with what I was saying, it is a sense for me, but I cannot confirm it unless I see it. I have a fear of it.

    Education is a big one for me. I have watched teachers speak out against religion in class, sometimes very aggressively, but they can’t be for it, or speak for it. That’s odd to me. Speaking against or for is evangelism. If one isn’t allowed, the other shouldn’t be as well. It isn’t that way in education. Anti-religious stance is allowed, but pro-religious stance is not. That’s a slippery slope for me.

    As you’ve heard me said before, I am totally fine without out any religion being talked about in school. Perhaps history or philosophy classes would allow some good discussion, but religion is very personal and should be kept there. So, if someone wants it taught to their child, they have the choice of private education, but I have a hard time respecting a teacher that speaks out against it in public school. That isn’t there place or right.

  27. 27 Darla

    Hey Noreaster/ Brent- I am the same as Brents comment, but I do love what Obama offers, I just don’t see how he can make that happen without taking more control and when the government has that much control (as it already has taken lots of libertys) it borderlines Socialism, which through history has proven to be a stepping stone to communism…I guess what scares me about that is I have daughter who graduated a couple years ago, with little to no knowlege of socialism, and the two I have in school thinks it when they hangout 😆 our youth are not being taught anymore what that is or the dangers. Iam not an auuthority on this by no means..just my two cents. I am resolved to the fact that God is control, and whatever way He wants to humble American, HIS will be done. have a good day , back to work for me!

  28. Brent

    For the most part I agree with your sentiments. Public school teachers should neither encourage nor discourage the practice of ANY religion. They should definitely not evangelize for nor disparage against any religion. I have absolutely no issues whatever with religious philosophy or comparative religious course offerings in a public school setting so long as they are NOT turned into a means for indoctrination into one particular religion. In a pluralistic society as is ours, the arena of publicly funded schools has to be kept secular.

    R.

  29. Robert, I completely agree.

    So, do you think the war issues are gonna effect the election? Could a winnable war be a plus for McCain?

  30. 30 TheNorEaster

    First, I really don’t think anyone answered my previous question. Certainly not to my satisfaction.

    But, moving on…

    “I have my own fears…as a Christian…about how my life is being taken away by anti-Christian liberals.”

    This reminds me of something a friend of mine said a few years ago. He was going with his pastor to see some movie about “christians” which was made by the so-called “anti-Christian liberals.” When I asked why he was going, my friend answered, “My pastor wants to see what people are saying about christians.”

    A millionth of a second later, I thought, “Instead of asking ‘What are they saying?’, we ought to be asking, ‘WHY ARE THEY SAYING IT?'”

    Now, the example I am about to give most of you–if not all of you–are going to find EXTREMELY OFFENSIVE, but the moment time I saw it, I knew exactly what it was and why it was there. It was a SATIRE against the “anti-neo-conservative-christian right.” The headline was, “Gay scientists isolate [c]hristian gene.”

    Okay. Get it out of your system. The shock. The rage. The sense of being threatened. Take a deep breath. Pretend for a moment that this is not a blog you’re just going to skim over so you can move on to the next one and have some fun reading about a baby getting potty trained or whatever. READ BETWEEN THE LINES: The church has spent so much time speaking AGAINST things like homosexuality that so many of us HAVE FORGOTTEN GOD’S GRACE and the TEACHINGS OF CHRIST.

    Teachings like MERCY, GRACE, COMPASSION, FORGIVENESS, and LOVE get LOST in the church’s stand AGAINST THIS and AGAINST THAT and AGAINST THIS and AGAINST THAT. So the other side, for those who have eyes to see and ears to hear, is so hungry for what God offers–human beings ARE made in God’s Image, remember–but that the church has so willingly FORSAKEN that they bite back with the above satirical headlines and articles. And then christians feel threatened so they fight back.

    And the cycle continues. Because so many people don’t know the difference between the christian right and the right Christians.

    When we forsake God’s grace in favor of the power and the control that comes with religious legalism–a set of “don’t do this!” and “don’t do that” regulations”–let’s face it…we deserve far, far worse. Like Paul said, “If anyone preaches a Gospel other than the one we preached to you, let that person be cursed.”

    In this instance, it is a curse well-deserved. Because the very Gospel has been corrupted by those who are commanded to TEACH IT.

  31. The begs the question:

    “What is your definition of win?”

    There will never be a ‘treaty’ signed by the combatants ending hostilities in Iraq.

    How will we know when the war is won?

    This election will be decided by a candidate’s rhetoric which best convinces the electorate that he is the better manager of a huge ‘sh@t sandwich’ mess.

    My view is that the McCain is offering NOTHING new. For the last eight years the GOP has been basing their message on FEAR. Convince America that they need to be afraid then promise to protect them. Even though no one can predict nor protect against terrorism without shredding the Constitution.

    It all depends upon how Americans decide to vote will we continue to vote from our FEARS as the Republicans hope? I can’t say where it will go.

    Now for another soapbox moment:

    It is said that Franklin said something to the effect that “Those who would give essential freedoms for the promise of security deserve neither.”

    I agree….

    What has the legacy of the last 8 years been?

    Habeas Corpus suspended, complicity in the torture of human beings, lies and obfuscations to and outright deceit of the American public…. all in the name of protection and saving American lives.

    Are these our American values? Is this the soul of America?

    Save American lives at ANY cost?

    To quote the bible:

    For what shall it profit a man, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul

    Naturally, I don’t define soul as simply the part of me that’s said to survive death.

    I’m talking about the soul of what it means to be human: compassion, honesty, humility and love.

    In my opinion the Republicans sold their own souls for the illusion of security. I will not vote for one for a LONG time.

    End soapbox moment!

    R.

  32. Robert, I new that “win” would come into question 🙂

    “How will we know when the war is won?”

    According to the article. they see that “positive trends” is moving forward. There is no true “win” in a war. Lives lost is never a plus, it is always a negative. But if their are goals set, and they are being achieved, this can be considered moving forward. Whether that is negative term or not.

    I said it earlier in the comments, but our country was founded on defense not offense. It was always about defending our rights and liberties. I don’t understand why we can’t get back to that? I can see why we aren’t, but it frustrates me. If oil is truly the issue, then we’ve proven our greed, cause we have more than enough without taking everyone else’s. If weapons are an issue, it’s only cause we are using them to further an agenda, not to secure. It is truly as you have said, “a huge ’sh@t sandwich’ mess”.

    Now, I don’t think standing against anything is the naswer. i think doing the right thing is. You said it best,

    “I’m talking about the soul of what it means to be human: compassion, honesty, humility and love.”

    I think any side can agree on that. I just want to see who has the guts to live up to it. I’d vote for them.

    Also, you are welcome to have your soapbox anytime you want. My frustrations with government and leadership sound similar to yours as I read your words, but I don’t see this as a republican issue. I see both sides screwing up. I am frustrated with the system. Whether right or left doesn’t matter. The republicans are bullies, the democrats give false promises…it never ends. Both sides suck in my mind. I don’t see it as an 8 yr issue, I see this going back to Bush Sr. AND including Clinton. the legacy has been formed and the present admin is just living up to the standard and taking it the next step.

    As I see candidates that stand for less government involvement and control, I will listen.

    NorEaster, Some leaders, and candidates in this instance, see “universal” as good. I flat out disagree. The government should not be providing services to it’s people. It should be protecting the people’s rights to have services. I think the systems we have now are a mess, things like health care, insurance, social security, but those shouldn’t be up to the government. Once the government starts regulating how I get health care, how I am insured, how I live in retirement, they’ve gone too far. To have a government that is pursuing how to provide for people, leads us to a society that is dependent on government. That’s wrong and that is socialism.

    I understand that my view on this and my statements here only touch the surface, but this explains my basic view of moving to socialism.

  33. Noreaster,

    “READ BETWEEN THE LINES: The church has spent so much time speaking AGAINST things like homosexuality that so many of us HAVE FORGOTTEN GOD’S GRACE and the TEACHINGS OF CHRIST.”

    This is RIGHT ON! And absolutely where my heart is. I get tired of the “against” instead of the “for”.

    “In this instance, it is a curse well-deserved. Because the very Gospel has been corrupted by those who are commanded to TEACH IT.”

    This is interesting. I agree on a basic level, but if you look at what churches are actually growing and thriving in this country, it is churches that speak against this and speak for what you have talked about. Churches that preach hate and “against” are dying off. Unfortunately, I think too often, they are the loudest.

  34. 34 TheNorEaster

    “Churches that preach hate and “against” are dying off. Unfortunately, I think too often, they are the loudest.”

    That’s right. They are the loudest. And that is why they get the most attention in the media. After all, when was the last time CNN did a story about the Gulfport Town Council closing down God’s Katrina Kitchen–which consisted of volunteers who had given up everything to help with the rebuidling–because it was an “eyesore” to the onshore gaming industry?

    As for the health care issue, I think we’re going to have to agree to disagree. When I cut my thumb really bad, I went to the hospital and got a bill for $745. That’s disgusting. But since I didn’t want to risk infection or gangrene, what choice did I have?

    In democracy, the people control the government. So if the people don’t like the options the government has offered, it is responsibility of the people to change that. That’s how it works, at least in theory. But so many people have forgotten that; they simply surrender their power to the rhetoric.

    In socialism, as I recall, the people do not have the above option.

    There are many democratic governments that have universal health care.

  35. Three things required for this election-

    1) stay informed
    2) Pray about it – seeking God’s direction
    3) Vote !!

    I do think it is interesting that Obama has the strongest Christian testimony/heritage and yet is getting the most criticism of the three candidates from the Christian Right. We do have a record of shooting our own wounded don’t we. I guess they believe Hillary is out now.

  36. How do we define winning the war in Iraq?

    1. al-Qaeda had no influence in Iraq prior to the current war. No one knows how many recruits they now have in Iraq but I seriously doubt any believes they can now be eliminated.

    2. Iran had no influence in Iraq prior to the current war. Iran is the only other Arab country with a Shiite majority, besides Iraq, and their influence is likely to grow no matter the US does.

    I don’t think it is very good strategy to help your enemies.

    3. There is a religious civil war going on between the Shiite and Sunnis(?). There is also conflict between various Shiite factions in Iraq. This religious civil war will continue no matter what the US does. The level of violence does ebb and flow but I doubt anyone believes this civil war will end anytime soon no matter what the US does.

    4. The billions of dollars that have gone to the government of Iraq has been very poorly control. At least some of this money has mades it’s way to area’s control by Iraq leaders who oppose the US presence. I would guess some has made it’s way to el-Qaeda. We have been funding our enemies.

    4. The Taliban and el-Qaeda have regained control of areas in Afghanistan. How much territory they control is open to debate, that they are back in control of some parts of that country is not. These are the people who blow up the Twin Towers. To have allowed the Taliban to take back control of parts of Afghanistan, by diverting military resources to Iraq, is a slap in the face to every family who lost someone in the Towers. The 140,000(?) US Soldiers who are now in Iraq should be in Afghanistan hunting down and eliminating the people who killed Americans on 9/11.

    5. I don’t know how much Iraq oil was being sold on the market prior to the current war. Not much is making it’s way to the oil markets now. This is one factor in the high price of Oil, how much of a factor I don’t know.

    After five years, thousands of American soldiers died and billions of dollars lost and the best that can be said is situation is “improving”? That is not nearly good enough progress for me.

    I think a vote for McCain means a contuation of the failed polices of President Bush. Billions more dollars will be lost and thousands more US soldiers will die. The Iraq civil war will continue.

    I don’t think there is any good answer for what to do in Iraq now. The question to me is what is the least worst policy. How can we best remove ourselves from the civil war. What is the best way to target el-Qaeda without killing civilians, and thereby gaining el-Qaeda more recruits? What is the best, fastest, way to get the oil flowing from Iraq to the world markets?

    I am not sure either McCain or Obama has a good answer to any of the above questions. I know I don’t. To me McCain is Bush without the swagger so at this point a favor Obama. With Obama I believe fewer US Soldiers will die and billions less thrown away in a war I don’t believe can be won.

  37. Noreaster, I guess my srance on things universal is exactly what you said,

    “So if the people don’t like the options the government has offered, it is responsibility of the people to change that. That’s how it works, at least in theory.”

    I am afraid we haven’t seen much of the people in control lately. Seems like the government has taken control over the people’s wishes.

    Let me clarify as well. I am not opposed to something universal, just allowing the government to be the source. If the government wants to contribute to it…fine. I agree that costs are out of control, but in a universal system, I would have had to take part in paying your bill. Although I like you a lot, that is not fair 🙂

    Indian Lake Papa, VOTE!!! Amen!

    Ed, Good to hear from you!

    #1, the liberal media is saying they are being eliminated if not close to complete break down.

    #2 I don’t think we should help our enemies either, but laying down is not an option at this point. Also, consensus in Iran right now is that the people of Iran(not the leaders) are becoming more pro American because of what they are seeing in Iraq. The people of Iran don’t like what there leaders are doing either.

    #3 I don’t think we should ever be involved in another countries civil war, unless of course we can help in curbing genocide. It’s just interesting that we did this in Iraq and haven’t lifted a finger somewhere like Africa.

    #4 I’m with you. We failed to complete the task we started…although i am not sure there would ever be an end there as well.

    #5 I am not sure either. I am aware that the majority of our oil comes from Saudi Arabia.

    In regards to voting for McCain and furthering Bush’s policies, I am not sure about that. They are completely different people. McCain is for war, but not like Bush has run it. Also, there is no way for Obama to live up to his promise of 120 days once he’s in office. He says the troops will be out in 120 days. That’s a flat out lie, he can’t do it. This is not to say I agree with either one.

    It is all perspective for me. I truly can look at both right now and see all the good and the bad, cause I don’t like either one, so I am not protecting either one or fighting against either one. One thing big for me is the “crap” promises all these candidates make. I listened to one fo the candidates yesterday promise all this stuff about our military and in my opinion it was one of the most stupid things he could have done. 3 HUGE promises with no way to back it up. that to me, turns me off.

  38. 38 TheNorEaster

    “Let me clarify as well. I am not opposed to something universal, just allowing the government to be the source. If the government wants to contribute to it…fine. I agree that costs are out of control, but in a universal system, I would have had to take part in paying your bill. Although I like you a lot, that is not fair.”

    Okay. But consider this…

    If we attended the same church and I was starving, would you feed me?

    What if I had cancer and couldn’t afford the medication? Would you make a donation or perhaps attend a charitable dinner to help raise money for my chemotherapy?

    If the answer is Yes–and I’m pretty sure you’re a sheep, not a goat–is it really so different then a government-run health care system…?

    Sometimes, the future is inevitiable.

    As for “the government taking control of people’s wishes,” nobody does that unless the people let them.

  39. I hear you Noreaster.

    I see the correlation, but this is better done by intent not by force. I’m not sure how our country could do anything universal anyway. we are already taxed up the wazoo. To charge us more to take care of each other would be interesting. Besides it’s one thing to take care of someone in need, it is completely another to take care of someone in want. It’s hard to determine that and draw that line. If government controlled it, they would be determining that line for us.

    “As for “the government taking control of people’s wishes,” nobody does that unless the people let them.”

    I bet some Bush haters would beg to differ 🙂

  40. Hey Brent!

    I haven’t been able to go through all the comments and hopefully my response is not considered premature or ignorant but my question in response to the article/cartoon is that what is the US seeking victory over? From what I recall, Iraq was not imposing any kind of threat on the US in fact, many years and deaths later, it was discovered that they did not even possess the nuclear weapons that was such a huge concern at the time the war began.

    I am not a fan of this war. I believe many lives were lost without reason. However, I also believe that what is old has passed and we have to focus on the new things that God will be doing.

    I believe in Obama because of his faith and because my spirit tells me that he will walk by faith and not by sight. I believe in him because he is more transparent than majority of candidates I’ve seen [not just in this country, believe me, Pakistani politics are twenty times more challenging and confusing lol].

    I hope this made some sense. I don’t dislike Bush. I believe he is a man of God and has tried to do his best with what he had but just like any other human he fell short and made some bad choices during his term; the war being one of them. Obama or anyone else will do the same for all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God. What we are asked to do is pray for our officials that they would have a heart for God and seek Him in everything they do and say so as to bring Him glory. Let’s pray that prayer together and in agreement for whoever that official may be!

    God bless 🙂

  41. gchyayles, I think your thoughts are along the lines of many of the comments here.

    I don’t agree with this war. I don’t see any good out of it, except a specific dictator is not in power. I hate that death continues to happen. With all that, the “leaving” process is going to be really tricky and cannot be done quickly. I believe that we are in this for a while even if there is “progress”.

    Regarding Obama and his faith. Where are you getting this info? Just curious, cause I am getting the exact opposite and I read some pretty liberal sources.

    Also, your last paragraph is right on. I will choose to pray for and support whichever candidate becomes President. I have no issues with that. whether I agree or not, I will be praying for them and doing what I can to make the country they are leading a better place.

  42. 42 TheNorEaster

    “I’m not sure how our country could do anything universal anyway. we are already taxed up the wazoo. To charge us more to take care of each other would be interesting.”

    Cut the military budget by just 15% and you’ve got the money to pay for health care for everyone. I know that’s not a very popular idea. Actually, not much of what I’ve said tonight has been very popular. And I’m sure people will jump on it and maybe even lynch me for saying that. Well, so be it. I’ve already been called “Satan’s Little Helper” because of who I voted for in the last presidential election. But if even if someone wants to call me a socialist, which I certainly do not consider myself to be, then well, that would at least be a step up. 😉

  43. Noreaster, first of all, I love your thoughts. That’s what these posts are for, to hear each others perspectives and hopefully learn from each other as well.

    I think it’s possible to gain that 15% if we decide to get back to defense and not offense.

  44. 44 TheNorEaster

    I have to admit, Brent, it’s nice to discuss these things and actually feel welcome. 😆

    And I think you’re right. Getting back to defense would be a great start…

    …Maybe we can start with finding bin Laden.

  45. “…Maybe we can start with finding bin Laden”

    Heck maybe he is hiding over here somewhere and we can’t find him, cause we’re over there 🙂

  46. I agree that there is no way Obama can make good on a promise to bring significant numbers of US soldiers home anytime in the next year. That’s just political rhetoric. Whatever the fate of Iraq is it will be decided by the Iraq leaders not the US government.

    In the long run the issue that concerns me the most is the growing power of the US Government, specifically the Homeland Security Department. It appears to me that the administration has used the “terrorist” bogey man to create an agency, which I believe was voted for by both McCain and Obama, that seems to have unlimited power. I am not a legal expert but I think Homeland Security can arrest any one they want (including Americans) any time they want, and hold them for as long as they want. I am not sure that even if the arrested party is an American they can even have access to legal representation.

    Terrorist, home grown and foreign, threaten American lives and property, they do not threaten our democracy. The only entity with the power to threaten our democratic system is the government itself.

    I am not aware that either candidate has said anything about expanding, or restricting, the power that has been given to Homeland Security. It’s my perception that in general the Republican Party is more in favor of giving Homeland Security power, and the Democratic party more likely to restrict that power, but I have not seen either candidate address this issue. Hopefully it will come up in the debates.

  47. OK… Robert RE: comments in #31, Amen, Amen and Amen to your comments about the erosion of liberty. (I know your an Atheist in Christian speak Amen means I agree 😉 )…

    That is why I would argue that Bush Jr is NOT representative of what the Republican party stands for. Ronald Regan would be furious over the disasterous policy’s this guy has initiated out of fear. (BTW Bush Sr can’t be all that happy either) Homeland Security, Patriot Act, et al ???? This is scary stuff. We SHOULD be scared. Look back to Germany 70 years ago and you see the same earmarks. People out of fear, desperation and hunger eagerly handing over individual freedom and liberty for the ‘good of all’. That is NOT the same Republican party that was founded out of outrage over the robbing of individual freedoms through the practice of slavery.

    This is what scares me about Obama. He favors an attitude of change for the ‘greater good’. Another words Socialism. As soon as you elevate ‘the greater good’ over individual freedom, you no longer have freedom. Eminent Domain – for the greater good; Distribution of Wealth – for the greater good; Appeasement to Tyrants – for the greater good; Surrender of Privacy – for the greater good.

    —-

    This concept that McCain is another Bush is preposterous. He’s certianly not the kind of Republican I just described, but he’s so far from Bush he’s almost a Democrat. The media (and Obama) would like you to believe that he’s Bush3 but fact and reality indicates different. Sad thing for the US is that while he’s better than Obama he’s still not what we need in the long run.

  48. Right now, in this world climate… we need to find Ronald Reagan pt2.

  49. 49 TheNorEaster

    Brent:

    Back to our earlier discussion about the whole “your paying for me, and that’s not fair” kind of thing.

    I just…I was at work last night, running our discussion through my head, and suddenly I remembered The Year of Jubilee.

    It was a command, a law. One might even say “forced” by God. Probably, it wouldn’t be too much of a stretch to call it “socialism” in the same way people think that universal health care is “socialism” (though I certainly wouldn’t call God’s commands socialistic and I certainly don’t think of universal health care as socialistic, either). But, if Israel had actually practiced it, the people would have been without poverty (at least according to the notes in my NLT LASB). And yet, from a worldly point of view, The Year of Jubilee was about as unfair as it could possibly get–cancelling debts, freeing slaves, and returning land to the original owners! Tall order that.

    Anyway. Just thought I’d throw that out there.

    Actually, truth be told, I’m kind of getting sick of seeing myself type the word “socialism” because–loud and clear now–ALL I WANT IS A BETTER RETURN ON MY INVESTMENT (tax dollars, that is).

    Okay. I’ve got stop typing. Now. Seriously.

    People probaby think I’m talking about politics…

  50. Nor.. It’s a common argument but I think a valid one… Have you been to the Department of Motor Vehicles? Have you read about the level of care recieved at Veterans Administration Hospitals? IRS?? The Government has not shown that it is capable of effectively administering anything much less my health. Besides, since when should this be part of thier job description?

    Re: Year of Jubilee…. Are you suggesting that the US Government should be in the business of enforcing manditory tithing? After all, God gave US, individually, the responsibility for taking care of the poor, weak, sick, widowed, prisoners, etc… So the US Government should be responsible for lightening that burden for us?? Wouldn’t it be better to let us keep more of our money, rather than FORCING us to invest it (as you put it) so we can keep our individual responsibilty to God? That way we become cheerful givers rather than grumbling tax payers.

  51. This post and discussion on politics is fascinating not in content but in tone and unity.

    As far as voting goes, I prefer to vote with my daily life rather than November ballots. Not terribly popular but not easy either.

    As far as socialism vs. capitalism goes, I view both as contrary to the gospel. For different reasons of course.

  52. Hey Brent, Do I have a comment in moderation or did I forget to ‘Submit’?

  53. Ed, I am with you. I have not heard much about any of that!

    Noreaster, I think Buddy understand my perspective on the “socialist” issues. I agree with your arguments. Where I have a hard time is letting a secular government manage something that is essentially Christian. At least our discussion is over the Biblical principles and how they play into our caring for individuals.

    I agree with Buddy taht our government is not equipped to care this way nor should it be in charge of it. I do agree that we should, as people, be living this way you have spoken and playing it out in our veryday lives.

    Also, Buddy pointed out my thoughts on Socialism with this,

    “This is what scares me about Obama. He favors an attitude of change for the ‘greater good’. Another words Socialism. As soon as you elevate ‘the greater good’ over individual freedom, you no longer have freedom. Eminent Domain – for the greater good; Distribution of Wealth – for the greater good; Appeasement to Tyrants – for the greater good; Surrender of Privacy – for the greater good.”

    Ric, I would agree with your capitalism vs socialism view. To clarify, I don’t see capitalism as the opposite of socialism, I see them both as faulty.

    Buddy, I got you out of comment hell 🙂

  54. I agree with BuddyO we need a new Reagan and Obama is trying to portray himself as a combo Reagan and Kennedy. I fear that he is going to turn out to be as disastrous as Jimmy Carter.

    I also think Reagan is a big reason why Republicans are having problems. He along with Buckley and Goldwater are the founding fathers of the modern conservative movement. It is also difficult to finding someone who was as great as Reagan it is similar to the NBA promoting every 6’6 guard as the next Jordan. What the Republicans need to do is go back to what won them both houses in 1994. Being in power for 12 years corrupted the Republicans just like it did the Democrats. After this election it will be interesting to see how the Republicans will respond because I have a feeling November is going to be ugly. 1964 ugly.

  55. Wow, thanks… it’s hot down there… It’s that darn HTML…

  56. I love how Reagan is called liberal by the left and conservative by the right. Everyone seems to want to claim him 🙂

  57. 57 TheNorEaster

    This comment is a response to BuddyO #50.

    American culture has a tremendous focus on individuality–even in matters of Christianity. For example, I remember reading, not so long ago, about a woman who had come to America from The Phillippians and she was shocked to hear that American Christians had a “personal relationship with Jesus.” Her response was, “I want to worship Jesus, not be His buddy!” Many other nations, however, are past the point of individuality and instead have developed a very strong sense of community. These are not socialist nation of which I speak. However, the law I was referring to earlier to make a comparison to–The Year of Jubilee–was given to the nation of Israel, not to a “group” of individuals.

    Regarding some of the other points you had made, I certainly don’t see the church’s mission as a matter of individuality, but of community. The community of the church must reach out to the community of which it is a part, locally (food banks), nationally (the Gulf Coast), and globally (overseas missions).

    My use of the term “force” was in reference to a comment Brent had previously made.

    On a lighter note, the last time I went to The DMV, I walked in, got my ticket, and no sooner had I turned around that my number was called. I hadn’t even filled out the forms yet. Fortunately, the woman at the counter was nice enough to tell me to fill them out and “fill them out and just come back so you don’t have to wait in line.”

    “Cheerful givers rather than grumbling taxpayers” is, quite simply, a matter of one’s attitude. Right now, I don’t like paying my taxes because I do not think that I am getting a worthwhile return on my investment. I see people homeless, starving, dying, and crumbling under the financial strain of medical costs and health insurance premiums that only cover so much while billions of dollars are going toward wars. I’m a self-employed business owner, not a socialist. But I have always believed that the government’s foremost responsibility is to the people and that that responsibility can and does change throughout the history of a nation. I’ve heard people say, “Social Security shouldn’t be a government program.” And my response to that is always, “You wouldn’t be saying that if you were 64 years old and had worked for Enron.”

    I know that a lot of people disagree with what I have said. I can certainly live with that. Because, like Paul had mentioned in Romans, “He who eats meat does so to the Lord. He who doesn’t eat meat does so to the Lord. Each one should be convinced in his own mind.” (Obviously, he wasn’t just talking about meat.)

    And, like the rest of you, I am convinced in my own mind.

    The tide of history shall flow where it will.

  58. Noreaster, I know you were commenting on Buddy’s comment, but I have to say that what I hear from you is good, challenging. I hope the church understands this. I wish they were showing more proof of understanding it. I have to include myself. If my life isn’t producing care, I can’t critique anyone else.

    I do however see what the church should be separate from what our government should be. No doubt that Moral and jut leaders would lead our country this way, I still don’t think it is the governments responsibility. I think it is people’s responsibility. I just wish there were more responsible people like you.

  59. “Love your neighbor as yourself” … You can’t truly love each other until you see the value in oneself.

    Individual freedom is not a bad thing… Individuality is critical. It’s vital to understand that people aren’t faceless… they have children, grandchildren, hopes, fears, needs… they have names… CEO and homeless alike.

    I had a dealing with a very close family member a few years ago he was in the midst of a liberal indoctrination in college at the time. At dinner he was pompously telling me about the virtue of ‘pure communism’ and the merits of socialism. He went on to talk about how it would be for the greater good to rid America of those folks that were just sucking the resources away from the greater good without contributing anything back, like the handicapped. At this point my wife speaks up (who has Multiple Sclerosis) and says “so I guess you mean me?”… See it was all well and good when it’s just groups of people with no faces…

    So if a few innocent people end up in jail because of a policy that helps the greater good it’s a shame, but worth it…
    If some ones home gets seized in Eminent Domain to make room to build a new Hospital for the community…
    If some corporation gets forced out of business in the name of the environment…
    After all it’s all for the greater good… until it’s YOUR son or daughter… until that someone actually has a face and a name.

  60. the law I was referring to earlier to make a comparison to–The Year of Jubilee–was given to the nation of Israel, not to a “group” of individuals.

    BTW… not sure if I get the difference between a nation and a group of individuals… 😉

    ——-

    Church IS community, but church is supposed to be separate from government, right?

  61. Buddy, well said.

    Also I believe church is and should always be seperate from government. Leaders may be influenced morally by their beliefs, but I see that as different.

    Sometimes people forget that ” seperation of church and state” was created to protect the government, not the church, understanding that it would also protect the church.

  62. 62 TheNorEaster

    “This is what scares me about Obama….Eminent Domain…Distribution of Wealth…Appeasement to Tyrants…Surrender of Privacy…”

    -Many of you may remember the eminent domain case against the seven homeowners in New London, Connecticut, which is about a half an hour from where I live. The local newspapers carried the story in a way the national networks could scarcely dream. It is the most recent and most well-known example of eminent domain abuse. However, this is the first time in the ten years of reading such in-depth, detailed coverage of such a prominent case that someone has mentioned Barack Obama and eminent domain in the same sentence. (In fact, the same lawyer who took Kelo’s case before The United States Supreme Court had once worked pro bono for my brother when he was in one of “dry spells” trying to get his son back from state custody. It probably would have turned out pretty well if my brother had stayed clean and sober.)

    -You call it “distribution of wealth,” but Bono of U2 calls it “ending stupid poverty, where children die because their medication costs $2 and they live on a $1 a day.” Even the Catholic Church now considers Excessive Wealth a deadly sin. And John the Bapist had said, “The one who has two cloaks should give one to somebody who doesn’t have any.” There are several others examples from Scripture that I could give, but, hopefully, you get the idea.

    -To quote former Secretary of State James Baker III, “Talking to our enemies is not appeasement.” And since Obama has said that he does want to talk to America’s enemies–well, I just might be going out on a limb here–but I’d have to say that statement also applies to Obama. If Reagan had not talked to Gorbechov, where would the world be now? And to quote an old proverb, “Only Nixon could go to China.”

    -After graduating from Harvard with a law degree, and having a resume that included the presidency of the Harvard Law Review, Obama passed up several well-paying jobs at prestigious law firms to work as a civil rights lawyer. So I really don’t see how he could, or would, expect anyone to give up their privacy for the so-called “greater good.”

    In a democracy, the government is–ultimately–responsible the people. So if the government is doing something the people don’t like, it is the people’s respsonsibility to change that. Sometimes, this happens when we elect a leaders who are more in tune with the needs of the people, instead of the “underpriviledged anyway” attitude. When laws are in place that protect the people from the cruelty and the injustices of a fallen world, people are much less likely to violate those laws for their own selfish ambition and greed.

  63. 63 TheNorEaster

    “You can’t truly love each other until you see the value in oneself.”

    I don’t believe that. I show my love for others by placing my love for them above my love for myself.

    One more thing…I was NEVER talking about socialism. I really don’t think I can say it any plainer than that. And I have mentioned this several times already. And specifically regarding the example you gave, BuddyO, I have a disability, too. And I would have shot that man a look that could peel paint.

  64. 64 TheNorEaster

    Buddy:

    One more thing before I head off to work here…Obama got my attention during the nomination process because of his stand for people with disabilities. He was, and still is, the only major presidential candidate to support The Americans with Disabilities Restoration Act, which I presume you know about considering your wife’s disability so I won’t go into details. Senators Clinton and McCain have nothing about it on their sites. But if you go to Obama’s website, you’ll find “disabilities” listed second under “issues.” He even has captions for a lot of his videos (if not all).

    Okay. It’s 1:30am. Time for me to go to work.

  65. “And I would have shot that man a look that could peel paint.”

    I ma have actually shot him, or taken a shot at him 🙂

  66. Hey Nor, good stuff… [I kinda feel like we hijacked Brents thread here. Feel free to stop by my place to chat if you want]

    Hey I’m a BIG supporter of Bonos work in the ONE foundation; however, they are far from supporting distribution of wealth. Their support of the Jubilee Act, GROWTH Act, Farm Bill Reauthorization, Fair Trade, et al are means for poor nations to stand on their own and open thier economies to be self sufficient. I saw an interview with Bono a short while ago where he was laying out the plan of helping to build infractructure and giving support to help poor countries develop exportable goods and services.

    You know as well as I that true wealth distribution would put everyone at the poverty level. By the time you take the wealth and resources of the world and divide it equally among the 6.7 billion people… we’d have an impoverished, savage world. Jesus understood that there would be poor and there would be wealthy and he didn’t condemn either (only the abuse of wealth). As a matter of fact He said that earthly wealth had no significance at all. What matters is charity, because that’s a matter of the heart. When it’s forced or mandated by a Government, the heart no longer has anything to do with it.

    Sorry Brent, we are soo far off topic, it may never return… 😦

  67. Buddy, I don’t think you guys are off target at all. I think it is good for all of to read through and see all perspectives and takes. I am loving this.

    I had brought up the socialism/universal thing in the beginning and it is nice to hear you and Nor speak to it and beyond it. It’s teaching me good stuff!

  68. I mean, as long as we’re wandering around out here.

  69. 69 Darla

    Ric- hahaha I love that switchfoot!

    back to our regularly scheduled discussion..I may to jump in or it would take forever to read through again…

    its been a while since we took it to 200… 😆 i know you all want to do it..

  70. Ric, I love it! Nice break in the program 🙂

    Darla, there is no way this one could get to 200. I’d have to talk about pregnant ladies and monkeys again 🙂

  71. 71 Darla

    😆 i think we can ! and you can talk about monkeys and prego women if you want! I am thinking that laughter is awesome medicine…it will help to swallow the political pill. 😯

    pray for us we are going through withdrawal with our internet connection, and after a week of getting kicked off repeatedly…the server has decided it is their router..but they can’t replace it til Sunday afternoon. I have three words for them…Adjust My Bill. (all in love of course 😉 )

  72. Darla, there is nothing worse than a bad internet connection!

  73. Actually, I kinda posted that particular video because of the discussion. Whenever we appear overly concerned about what the government is doing I think we need to remind ourselves that it is at best secondary.

    And a very distant second at that.

  74. Ric, good reminder!



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