Evolution saves the day

12Dec07

pregnantonallfours.jpgI don’t know how many of you saw this story today. And please bear with me, there is a whole bunch of sarcasm ahead ๐Ÿ™‚

Evolution Keeps Pregnant Woman Upright…

I really don’t know what to say, but I am sure I will think of something. Heres the basics. For some reason, scientists are wondering why woman don’t just topple over when pregnant. They discover that men and women have slightly different spines to allow woman to compensate for better leverage while holding onto more weight than usual.

I just have a few comments. If someone out there reading this is more knowledgable on evolution than me…PLEASE feel free to pipe in on this and help me understand ๐Ÿ™‚

I am going to highlight some quotes from the article and than pose my questions or comments…

“This elegant engineering is seen only in female humans and our immediate ancestors who walked on two feet, but not in chimps and apes”

Aren’t chimps and apes THE ancestors that walked on 2 feet? I am assuming they mean “non-human” ancestors. Who are the other ones? I am curious.

“{scientists}found two physical differences in male and female backs that until now had gone unnoticed: One lower lumbar vertebra is wedged-shaped in women and more square in men; and a key hip joint is 14 percent larger in women than men when body size is taken into account”

Are you telling me that no one has ever noticed these differences before? I find that hard to believe. Doctors and Chiropractors go through massive amounts of study to know the bodies of men and woman and the differences. But somehow, this just slipped by everybody…ever.

“”They{pregnant women} are experiencing a pretty impressive challenge. Evolution has tinkered … to the point where they can deal with the challenge. It’s absolutely beautiful, A little bit of tinkering can have a profound effect.”

I love this. Evolution just kind of tinkers and dabbles with ideas of what’s good and bad? Like maybe this would be better or maybe that will work. When did evolution become some intelligent God-like being that can think and decide what’s best. Again, I don’t understand evolution, but this seems to be a very interesting view of how “it” comes to conclusions.

“Walking on two feet separates humans from most other animals. And while anthropologists still debate the evolutionary benefit of walking on two feet, there are notable costs, such as pain for pregnant females. Animals on all fours can better handle the extra belly weight.”

We are seriously debating whether or not we should be walking on all fours?!?! I sure hope my tax money is not going to fund some sort of study on this one day. Can you imagine going to the doctor for your pre-natal visits. “Oh by the way, we have discovered that walking on all fours will be much more comfortable for you during pregnancy, so you should start practicing now”.

” The back changes appear to have evolved to overcome the cost of walking on two feet”

Now, I really thought evolution was smarter than this. It completely forgot about pregnancy.

And what are we going to study next???

“but what about men with stomachs the size of babies or bigger? What keeps them from toppling over?”

I sure hope they don’t decide to go after that one.

So just a couple of more questions. If evolution is still tinkering, do you think it could figure out how to just completely alleviate all pain in our backs? All these men with beer guts and woman getting pregnant, you’d think it would have figured it out by now. And since evolution is being considered the savior for pregnant women here, wouldn’t that imply that at one time pregnant women did not have this special vertebra and larger hip bone. Gee, it would really have sucked to be pregnant, however many millions of years ago, before this happened. I mean pregnant women would have been falling on their faces all over the place. Glad we’ve evolved ๐Ÿ™‚

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228 Responses to “Evolution saves the day”

  1. I’m glad you mentioned that at the end. I was wondering if women were toppling over left and right in the stone age. How frustrating that would’ve been. No, that’s great birth control!

    We don’t fall over because the weight that so quickly collects in our a$$ balances us out! Duh!

  2. Oh, and thinks you for not putting a pic of me when i was Prego.

    Sorry for all those months you were married to a Cruise Liner ๐Ÿ˜€

  3. Ya, but you were a HOT cruise liner.

    I mean that in the nicest way ๐Ÿ™‚

  4. Actually, I believe that chimps and other apes are considered to be something like our cousins, not our ancestors. Apparently they have evolved along beside us. I have a book somewhere that talks about this, let me just reach over and..oh…ah…Whoa-Oh-Oh-OH!…

    CRASH!-BANG!

    …Ah, sorry about that. Seems that I’ve tipped over again. Damn beer belly!

    Ouch.

  5. Christian is correct….

    Chimpanzees are best thought of as cousins to homo-sapiens (us).

    The implication being that we SHARE a common grand-parent.

    On that note there was a recent scientific study that showed chimps are BETTER at remembering than we are…

    http://blog.wired.com/wiredscience/2007/12/are-you-smarter.html

    What accounts for this surprising result?

    Draw your own conclusion if you want.

    Robert

  6. 6 Jason

    Firstly,

    “Chimpanzees are best thought of as cousins to homo-sapiens (us).”

    “Actually, I believe that chimps and other apes are considered to be something like our cousins, not our ancestors”

    six of one half dozen of the other.

    “On that note there was a recent scientific study that showed chimps are BETTER at remembering than we areโ€ฆ”

    wrong…the study failed to include motivation as a variable. If you tell a college student that they will get a beer or pizza or whatever if they get it right, though they want the pizza and beer, if they get it wrong, no real loss. On the other hand have you ever tried to take food away from an animal? Even a well fed one? I hope you don’t need your digits.

    One of the huge flaws in this study is that how bad the subjects want to get it right is not addressed or handicapped in any way.

    Just comparing apples to oranges.

  7. Jason said:

    “six of one half dozen of the other.”

    Robert says:

    No. There is a very large difference in saying that species is the parent of another OR the cousin of another!

    Gee! it’s such a good thing we have you around to point out how everybody is wrong.

    Clearly, you should in charge of all scientific research because you are just so much smarter than everyone else.

    Robert

  8. 8 Jason

    “cousin”

    Really? Now you’re saying that “cousin” is a genus specific technical science term? citation, please.

    “Clearly, you should in charge of all scientific research because you are just so much smarter than everyone else.”

    As I have said elsewhere before and to others, I thought you were against anti-intellectualism.

  9. The word COUSIN is an analogy…

    It is simply a way of conveying the idea that chimps are not considered to be in the direct lineage of modern humans.

    Much the same way as my cousin, Tammy, is not my mother! She and I SHARE a grandparent.

    Chimps are NOT a progenitor of the human species, chimps and humans SHARE a common ancestor.

    What are you not getting here?

    Robert

  10. “Animals on all fours can better handle the extra belly weight.”

    That would probably be #1 on my list of THINGS NOT TO SAY TO A PREGNANT LADY!!

  11. 12 Jason

    Firstly, help me find the evolutionary biologist who posits that there is some genetic spilt prior to chimps. Witness materialists filling their pants over Australopithicene (whihc is nothing but a knee and hip which may or may not be from the same animal) and the connections being suggested as vertical, not horizontal phenotypic movement. The existence of a split prior to chimps is even less of a theory than evolution itself.

    “She and I SHARE a grandparent.”

    Yes, and she is the ancestor of both of you.

    Which leads to this:

    “Chimps are NOT a progenitor of the human species, chimps and humans SHARE a common ancestor”

    Now, is that use of ancestor analogical, too? So bobo is your cousin (happy for you) but bobo’s ancestor isn’t yours? Isn’t yours? If chimps are the purported evolutionary stem, then doesn’t that make chimps the ancestors, and the chimp at the the zoo a (your) cousin?

    Your semantic inexactitude indicates that you aren’t quite getting it.

  12. I have to agree with Jason (gasp!) that there is very little convincing fossil evidence for the link between us and other primates. Sure we’ve got ten fingers and toes and a bunch of other similarities but when we remember that rabbits are closer to cows than they are to squirrels (biologically speaking) and in some ways we are closer to pigs than apes then….

    Of course when I look at the behavior of most teenagers then a connection to apes looks pretty convincing. Pigs, too, for that matter. ๐Ÿ˜‰

  13. 14 Jason

    “Pigs, too, for that matter”

    now yer just getting personal…

  14. Jason

    I’m not going to get into a evolutionary debate with you at another persons blog.

    Just because you in your infinite wisdom cannot possibly see the reasoning or the means by which men far more learned than you in evolutionary biology can deduce that Australopithecus was a very important link in the chain of human morphology doesn’t mean it didn’t happen.

    Classic argument from personal incredulity!

    To your mind evolutionary theory is a fantasy. I don’t believe that ANY scientist anywhere in any time could ever present evidence to you that would be convincing enough, short of building a time machine and allowing you to witness the events first hand. For you it is far more believable that a supreme being created EVERY species as it is. FINE!

    To me however, the evidence, though admittedly not conclusive, points to a different far more natural origin.

    If the possibly being related to another primate is somehow demeaning and or offensive to you…Well that’s your issue, not mine. I am much more honored to count myself related to chimps than some of the narrow-minded ‘troglodyte’ humans I meet on a daily basis.

    You said:

    “but boboโ€™s ancestor isnโ€™t yours?”

    That would depend where this ancestor fell on the evolutionary tree.

    It was AFTER the diversion point of humans and chimps, then NO, Bobo’s ancestor isn’t mine. It would be a more distant cousin.

    If this supposed ancestor lived BEFORE the diversion point then YES it is an ancestor.

    And again so what!? I don’t have a problem with that, it’s you that seems to have the problem. just because i share an ancestor with a chimp doesn’t mean I place the same value on them. I’ve never seen a chimp compose a symphony, write a novel, paint a masterpiece, or develop high technology.

    Clearly, there is a huge difference!

    Please don’t make a ‘straw man’ of my views.

    Robert

  15. 16 Jason

    “doesnโ€™t mean it didnโ€™t happen”

    Everybody, this is code for “I don’t know”. If anyone ever says this to you call them on the speculation.

    So you show up, make a correction of a colloquialism using equally inexact language (even within your own faith stucture) have no good defense for your unfounded non-correction, nor can you defend the the presuppositions underlying this, somebody calls you on it, and that is a straw man? I don’t think I need to construct a straw man, I think there is already one there.

    If you don’t want get in an evolutionary debate, perhaps don’t show up and make undefendable assertions.

  16. First of all Christian…beer belly…Hahahahahah!!!

    Ok, I understand the cousin/ancestor thing, it makes more sense to where they are coming from. It did confuse me as they made it sound like chimps and apes were our ancestors.

    Robert says,

    “What accounts for this surprising result?”

    Maybe the fact that bananas and sex are all they think about? Sorry I had to throw that out there ๐Ÿ™‚ I like Jason’s response to this as well. I am confused how we can consider motive and intellect in animals verse humans. Apples/Oranges makes sense to me.

    Obviously we have gotten off topic a little bit and I don’t mind that, but we need to stay in a place where we can honestly listen.

    I for one do not have an issue with evolution, only when it decides it knows better than my God does. (Yes, I am a narrow minded Christian). That is a main point in what I have written. I found it humorous that evolution was so smart almost “being” like.

    My issue is that many have decided that a theory by which we come up with ideas/conclusions, is somewhat considered fact. Robert I am sure you could answer to this with your knowledge of evolution. My understanding is that scientists take info they have and run it through a theory, like evolution, and all that theory has to offer and then they come out with some sort of conclusion or stance on what they believe they have learned (I understand this is not a very technical way of explaining it). My concern than comes when a scientist is so proud of what is FACT after testing it with a THEORY. Does this make sense in how I am explaining it?

    Apart from that, this point was meant to point out some silliness. It was like reading a bad teenage girls book report. She was so excited to figure something out that seems to have no value to world peace, global warming or political upheavel. I would like science used for our problems, not our agenda. (Do we really think how we walk is a pressing issue?)

    Chris – You are absolutely correct

    Mandy – thank you for the calm in the storm

    Christian – Keep the jokes coming…we may be here all night ๐Ÿ™‚

  17. Jason said:

    “Everybody, this is code for โ€œI donโ€™t knowโ€.”

    Robert says:

    So what?!

    You say this like it’s a weakness!

    Again thank god you are here to point out the flaws of this silly atheist. You are really good at pointing out speculations! But, do you ever turn that laser wit on yourself?

    What is epistemological basis for your blanket acceptance of bronze age mythology? From where comes this pessimistic, dreary view of the worthlessness of humanity on its own merits?

    The words “I don’t know” are the beginning of wisdom. This is not a weakness. There were lots of things we didn’t know at one time that we DO know today.

    Just because you are unwilling to even entertain the notion that the evidence is indeed pointing to a natural process for human origins, doesn’t mean that all research should stop.

    And by the way…

    The assertions I made are not mine they are the conclusions drawn by hard working men and women who have the courage to ask tough questions. These conclusions are always tentative…that’s the nature of science and naturalism. As I said on another blog it has worked for us, it IS working for us and WILL continue to work, so long as there are people willing to answer a question with the phrase: “I don’t know” and then say: “but let’s try to find the answers.”

    You want absolutes. Fine! Stick to your supposed inerrant Bible.

    You call my world view nothing more than another faith. So be it! I have faith in the intellectually honest inquiry being engaged in by scientists. My faith is based in our own intellect and capabilities, not in bronze age mythology.

    I will put my faith in Science and Reason.

    Robert

  18. “We’ve all heard that a million monkeys banging on a million typewriters will eventually reproduce the entire works of Shakespeare. Now, thanks to the Internet, we know this is not true.”

  19. A young pet monkey had an accident and needed a brain transplant. The veterinarian told the monkey’s human family, “Brains are very expensive, and you will have to pay the cost yourselves.”

    “Well, how much does a brain cost?” asked the family.

    “For a male brain, $500,000. For a female brain, $200,000,” replied the vet.

    All the men in the family nodded because they thought they understood. But the mother was unsatisfied and asked, “Why the difference in price between male and female brains?”

    “Standard pricing practice,” said the vet. “The female brains have to be marked down because theyโ€™ve actually been used!”.

  20. ๐Ÿ˜€

  21. “I will put my faith in Science and Reason.”,/p>

    I know this wasn’t directed to me, but I felt I needed to respond. I have always led a life that has faith in science and reason. It has never shown me that the God I serve doesn’t exist. I have always been a pretty logical guy. But Robert, if this is why you don’t believe in God, it isn’t an answer. Both can exist quite nicely.

    I think for me and maybe Jason would fight against is fact being made out of fiction. When science has studied medicine, that have literally been able to take a medicine and experiment with it till it works. they have been able to study the human body and understand it and then come up with a game plan. Evolution is a theory as I understand it and a theory can’t truly come up with fact, but only hypothesis. We can act on this, but why? There is a ton of ideas and thoughts out there, but only a few facts.

    Christians and non-Christian will always battle over evolution, because it places sole responsibility for answers in someones or somethings hands. We have our beliefs in that, Robert you have stated this. I think there is always a balance between what we are learning scientifically and what we know. For the Christian…zero will always be God. For the evolutionist…zero will always be the theory.

  22. Ouch!

  23. @inWorship:

    Thank you for your conversational tone. Jason has a knack for bringing out the worst in me.

    To your observations:

    “have always led a life that has faith in science and reason. It has never shown me that the God I serve doesnโ€™t exist”

    I have NEVER, EVER, made the statement: “God does not exist”.

    I HAVE made the statement: “I don’t believe Zeus, Pele, Ganesh, Marduk, Odin or Jehovah.”

    You would agree with me on all of those candidate Gods but the last.

    You are convinced of Jehovah’s existence by the Bible and or personal revelation.

    I am not. But, that does not mean, I believe God does NOT exist. As I have said I believe the Bible to be an approximation of God, not the end all be all.

    You then said:

    “Evolution is a theory as I understand it and a theory canโ€™t truly come up with fact, “

    To quote wiki: “a theory is a mathematical or logical explanation, or a testable model of the manner of interaction of a set of natural phenomena, capable of predicting future occurrences or observations of the same kind, and capable of being tested through experiment or otherwise falsified through empirical observation.”

    Newton’s Theory of Gravity is a theory, yet it’s mathematics are good enough to allow us to put satellites into orbit around Earth, Mars, Jupiter and Saturn.

    Understanding of Solid-state Theory allows us to make silicon microchips that make possible the computer we now take for granted.

    None of these are complete theories yet the do very well at explaining phenomena within their spheres.

    I agree that evolutionary theory is incomplete. but, it goes the farthest to explain the diversity of life around us.

    Robert

  24. I would like science used for our problems, not our agenda.

    Sweet quote…

    The words โ€œI donโ€™t knowโ€ are the beginning of wisdom. This is not a weakness.

    Amen brother… I argue that all the time. Just curious… If you truly embrace that idea, why do you have difficulty with the supernatural or mystical aspect of God? Not being argumentative, sincerely curious.

    To quote wiki: โ€œa theory is a mathematical or logical explanation, or a testable model of the manner of interaction of a set of natural phenomena, capable of predicting future occurrences or observations of the same kind, and capable of being tested through experiment or otherwise falsified through empirical observation.โ€

    Robert, not to gang up… but I would avoid the use of that definition to describe (in a favorable light anyway) Evolution. According to that definition Evolution doesn’t even qualify as theory as it is neither testable nor observable.

    โ€œThe female brains have to be marked down because theyโ€™ve actually been used!โ€

    And the mother fell for that… perhaps that’s why they were discounted… ๐Ÿ˜‰

  25. Thanks for your reply Robert,

    “You are convinced of Jehovahโ€™s existence by the Bible and or personal revelation. I am not. But, that does not mean, I believe God does NOT exist.”

    I guess I am a little confused by this. Would you say that a God may exist, just that my Christian God as I know him may not be the one? Just trying to understand your thought here.

    The picture you have given of evolution is kind of my point. I think it can come up with ideas which we can act on, but it is not the end all as well. I would be curious if God was always considered a variable, where science would lead us.

  26. Tam – I love your joke ๐Ÿ™‚

  27. BTW: Jason, what happened to your blog?

  28. inWorship said:

    “I guess I am a little confused by this. Would you say that a God may exist, just that my Christian God as I know him may not be the one?”

    Robert says:

    Yes exactly. I am amenable to the concept of God I just don’t think the the bible is an accurate and complete description of God any more than Allah is an accurate characterization of God.

    Robert

  29. Robert,

    I’d disagree with you about the ‘accurate’ part but I agree that the Bible is not and cannot be a complete description. See my previous question to you about being able to say “I don’t know”.

    My wife (a brilliant mind) always says that if she [we] were able to understand God than He wouldn’t be much of a God.

  30. Hmmm….a quote from a female brain?

    ๐Ÿ˜‰

  31. 32 Jason

    This is great!

    @ Robert,

    You are quite right in that admitting to not knowing is absolutely OK, in fact, I would respond much differently if that’s what you did.

    But again, you asserted someone else didn’t know what they were talking about. And then it was shown that the corrector needed correcting, and not once did you take an interest in saying, “you know, I’m not sure about that.”

    Buddy is temperately right, as usual. “I don’t know” is a worthwhile answer.

    Now if that were only what had happened…

  32. “Hmmmโ€ฆ.a quote from a female brain?”

    I think all the men bought them so that they would disappear. I mean they were on sale…

    ๐Ÿ™‚

  33. 34 Jason

    “I mean they were on saleโ€ฆ”

    The guy on the corner with the card table said it was a brand name!

  34. Hahahaha!!!!!!!!

  35. Tam, I’m stealing your bunny trail….

    Robert: Totally sidetracking, but if there is one thing I’ve learned the last couple of days is, noone can make you respond in any way. We choose to. I say that because I have done a poor job recently…..I’ve learned that when my feathers get ruffled it’s time to lay down the pride, and learn something. Noones out to get ya!

    OK, this got me…”Evolution just kind of tinkers and dabbles with ideas of whatโ€™s good and bad?”

    Now, evolution can reason too? And make changes and adjustments? Good grief…..why not take that last step and realize it’s a God thing??????

  36. Hey, one of those female brain thingy’s showed up ๐Ÿ™‚

    no offense tam ๐Ÿ˜ฏ

  37. “I think all the men bought them so that they would disappear. I mean they were on saleโ€ฆ”

    I could see this happening but only at a two for one sale….LOL ๐Ÿ˜€

  38. ON SALE!!!!!

    You are SOOOO in trouble for that one dude!

  39. 40 Jason

    “I mean they were on saleโ€ฆ”

    they gitchya in the door with free nachos

  40. tam – Your the one that said they were on sale…I was just referring to your comment ๐Ÿ™‚

    Jason – dude, the nachos get me everytime…

  41. Technically, “marked down because they’ve actually been used”. Your comment sounds like they tossed in the clearance rack ๐Ÿ˜ฏ

    So serious now….seriously….When I chose God I stopped searching out the answers for so many of my questions. I found the answer in Him. I had wondered all my life how it all began. I was taught evolution in school. I was taught it in my home. I was made aware of changes in what i was being taught and books were revised and minds were changed. It bugged me.

    Why can’t God and evolution co-exist? Wait. They do. I have no problem with God in the beginning saying, alrighty go unfold in an orderly fashion. I think it’s all fascinating! In my mind I love knowing the Creator and then watching His creation in discovery day after day. It’s a beautiful thing!

    Oh, and my family is form the Midwest. We ALL are related, trust me! And there a couple of monkeys hangin’ in our family tree!

  42. “Hey, one of those female brain thingyโ€™s showed up ๐Ÿ™‚

    no offense tam” ๐Ÿ˜ฏ

    And Dear, this on sale brain is gonna go spend your money on stocking stuffers ๐Ÿ˜€

    I wonder if they’ve put coal out yet?

  43. wow…a bazillion comments…
    I made a tshirt once with a monkey on it that says “leave me alone Im still evolving”

  44. I like the monkey t-shirt that says

    “Who Flung Poo”

  45. 46 Ed

    Having filled my belly with lots of good food, and expecting to repeat the process may times over the next few days, I don’t have to worry about tipping over because I can hardly stand up. ๐Ÿ™‚

    Science is all about asking questions, about everything. Why are some people left handed, why do some people have blue eyes, why don’t pregnant women fall over. Every answer we learn is one more step in trying to understand this world we live in.

    I read science articles every day and what gets reinforced is how little we know about how the world works. However, thinks to the scientific process, we are learning more and more each day.

    I don’t think we will ever know exactly how everything in the world works. At least I hope not. Where would be the challenge?

  46. 47 Jason

    @Super Bud

    “BTW: Jason, what happened to your blog”

    The information contained in the syntax which comprised the design of the blog was affected by gamma rays and global warming to the point where the buttons on the screen evolved into little Jackie Mason figures, always talking, always finishing statements with a question. Though it was exciting to observe punctuated equilibrium just sitting here at my table, and though I loved him in “The Jerk” and as the Aardvark in “The Ant and the Aardvark”, it made it hard to concentrate on well reasoned entries that bothered people.

    So I evolved out of it.

  47. 48 Jason

    I agree, Ed. That’s actually what the bible says about people who love God. Psalm 111.

  48. Ed, AMEN! Glad to have you back. At least until your next feast ๐Ÿ˜‰

    J, Your entries didn’t bother me friend…

    By the way, I’m having Nachos right now for lunch.

  49. The problem I have with the evolutionary monkey family tree is the mental picture. They’re all on different limbs and different levels….some are climbing up. The top monkeys look down and see smiling faces, the monkeys on the bottom see nothing but monkey butt.

    Jason: I will repeat my question…what about all of those who it didn’t bother and actually learned alot? We’re not part of the gamma ray evaporation equation? ๐Ÿ˜ฆ

    ED: HOW ARE YOU????? We’ve been missin ya!
    Psalm 111, good words!

  50. 51 Jason

    “J, Your entries didnโ€™t bother me friendโ€ฆ”

    you really know how to hurt a guy

  51. Ed, I actually just replied to your comment on my blog regarding this…

  52. ๐Ÿ˜ฆ

  53. 54 Jason

    can I be the top monkey?

  54. “can I be the top monkey?”

    Only if you have a blog… ๐Ÿ˜€

  55. 56 Jason

    just kidding, tam

    gotta keep up appearances…they’re watching, you know….

  56. 57 Jason

    @IW,

    Is the person in the picture a quadriped? I sure hope so…finally a transitional form!!

  57. Curious? If our lungs evolved for a fish’s gills (that is a theory correct?) Then where are the discoveries of all the processes in between? A fossil is found and said to be something we evolved from from millions of years ago, but i never hear of any stages in between being found.

    Anyone?

  58. “from” a fish’s gills

  59. 60 Jason

    gooooooooooood Tam!

  60. Yes, where are the tweeners? Good point Tam..!!!!!

  61. J-ManDude…

    The absense of your blog will be sorely felt. If you read the archives of my blog (a couple of years ago) I used to be able to get Christian (Otto) quite worked up. Recently I’ve lost my touch… We’ll have to work hard to find someone to get under his skin as effectively as you…

    Let me know when you get it started again I’ll be there. (I am confident the public outcry will overwhem you)

  62. “gooooooooooood Tam!”

    “Yes, where are the tweeners? Good point Tam..!!!!!”

    YAY!

  63. Actually I think they found a small fragment from the knuckle bone of the transitional form you are talking about.

    They can tell from the fragment that it was a hominid that breathed through gills. It lived in clans of 12-17 adults. It ate mostly Mushrooms and truffles (liked that Umami).

    Here’s an artist rendering. They’ve named it Christianus Ottos.

    Amazing what you can ‘learn’ from a little fragment!

  64. hahahahahahahahahah Hilarious!

  65. Thanks for clearing that up!

  66. Holy Crap! I leave for lunch and who the heck are all these people ๐Ÿ™‚

    ED – It is SO good to hear from you! We’ve missed you around here! I also agree that there is so much to learn, but something I said earlier still sticks with me. I would be curious if God was always considered a variable, where science would lead us.

    tam – good job hun ๐Ÿ™‚

  67. Buddy – Are those dog ears over that things gills?

  68. J, just a sec here….I had said you never offended me on your blog. Which is true! And sorry B, this isn’t the place but I have J’s attention here ๐Ÿ˜‰

    Even IF you had offended me – would that be wrong? Are Christians so perceived as perfect that we never offend one another. Seriously! That’s silly. But if I were offended because you called me on something then that isn’t about you, its about me. Correct? I would be more of a mess today if certain individuals around never called me out. It doesn’t show arrogance it shows love…especially when it is done in a respectful and loving manner. I cannot control how one might point out a conflict of interests or thought process but i can control how I receive it – offensively – or not. I am done now.

    The queen of Bunny Trails has returned.

  69. “tam – good job hun :)”

    schucks! thanks babe!

  70. iW,

    That’s very perceptive of you!

    It just so happens that they just found another fragment from it’s pinky toe (about 560 yards from the first fragment) that indicates that this ancestor of ours had dog ears.

  71. Hello? What – am I invisible? I’ve got feelings too, you know. Maybe if I stood over here where the light is a bit better….

    Anyway, I remember reading something by Steven J. Gould where he was discussing evolutionary ‘oddities’ such as the Pre-Cambrian explosion and the fact that by this time the fossil record should have presented more support for evolutionary theory. He said, essentially, that the lack of evidence on hand would tend to discredit some of the more popular scientific conclusions and we have no choice but to wait for these ‘missing links’ to be discovered. This would be the only option available for reasonable people because the alternative to evolution is too repugnant to even consider.

    So Gould is just as ‘guilty’ of resorting to irrational faith in shaping his world view as any Christian. I am close to where Tam is on this subject. I think the jury is still out on the evolutionary issue. But if the ‘missing links’ should suddenly be found (and it would need to be more than just the odd skull fragment or tooth to be viable) it would not affect my faith in God one bit. I think both sides of this debate should be able to see that evidence of evolution does not discredit the possibility of a diety.

  72. 73 Jason

    “Are Christians so perceived as perfect that we never offend one another.”

    Ask Robert.

    As well, you are working too hard on this. To be the queen of the bunny trails you need to actually be ON a trail. You went hiphiphopping into the thicket on that last one.

  73. “It just so happens that they just found another fragment from itโ€™s pinky toe (about 560 yards from the first fragment) that indicates that this ancestor of ours had dog ears.

    They’ve got that all wrong. It obviously shows that the creature/human/thing was 560 yards tall. ๐Ÿ™‚

  74. 75 Jason

    I sure am glad I was sitting down, well done, C.

    Nice hat, by the way!

  75. 76 Jason

    @C,

    “diety”?

    Is that Yahtzee religion?

  76. 77 Jason

    “560 yards tall”

    hahahahahah

    it’s gonna make a comeback with global warming.

  77. Christian – Well said. this is back to my point that all theories in the world just get us to more theories. I truly am not sure how we can say that we have the facts scientifically if we do not even have the facts…

  78. 79 Jason

    perhaps I should just put all this in one entry.

    I think the Gould quote goes something like “the trade secret of paleontology is the utter dearth of transitional forms”

  79. I love it when men say words like “thicket”

  80. 81 Jason

    “Are those dog ears over that things gills?”

    does that make Chris the ancestor or the cousin of swimming dogs?

  81. “I think both sides of this debate should be able to see that evidence of evolution does not discredit the possibility of a diety.”

    Hi C! I agree….it’s acknowledging that diety that is the most important part….

  82. And I SO was on a trail there Mister!

    Now you’ve gone and offended me

    ๐Ÿ˜‰

  83. “perhaps I should just put all this in one entry.”

    As in blog entry? As in your own? ๐Ÿ˜€

  84. J, where did you find the quote? I have have looked (almost) everywhere and couldn’t find it.

  85. “does that make Chris the ancestor or the cousin of swimming dogs?”

    Depends if he has a nice a$$. I mean evolution would be able to decide whether or not he should be one on top or one looking up(the tree), right? Does evolution take nice a$$es into account???

  86. 87 Jason

    i’ve got it somewhere around here, in my hundred acre wood of books.

  87. 88 Jason

    my cousin’s or my ancestors a$$?

    now THAT’S a bunny trail!

  88. J, Maybe you should look in the thicket

    ๐Ÿ˜€

  89. 90 Jason

    the thicket is my ‘hood, T.

  90. I am laughing so hard here I am actually shedding a tear ๐Ÿ™‚

  91. As in blog entry? As in your own?

    Yeah J, you really fouled up my feed reader. It keeps barking at me. Thanks a lot. I’ll wait to delete the entry…

  92. Careful iW… you don’t want to make any extra laundry…

  93. Nope we can’t have that ๐Ÿ™‚

  94. 95 Jason

    “I am laughing so hard here I am actually shedding a tear”

    As I used to say as a phlebotomist, “it ain’t a good day if nobody cries.

    do people who use “‘hood” in context think “apostrophe” before they say it?

  95. “the thicket is my โ€˜hood, T.”

    Do you wear green tights?

  96. Do people who use “hood” think “apostraphe”?

  97. 98 Jason

    Bud, what Jackson Pollack did you pick for the picture by your entries?

  98. 99 Jason

    “Do you wear green tights?”

    picture a 260 lb., fat Errol Flynn.

  99. eeeewwww

    never mind

    ๐Ÿ˜ฏ

  100. Awwww men in tights….now those are evolutionary beings with nice a$$e$….

    J ignored me… ๐Ÿ˜ฆ

  101. Did you say Jackson Pollack? Uh-oh. I think you’re in trouble now.

    I can’t swim. Not well anyway. I do wear tights at my night job, though. But they’re black, not green.

    What the heck’s going on here?

  102. Don’t ask questions Christian…just go with it ๐Ÿ™‚

  103. 104 Jason

    C’s bunny trail abstract. Outstanding!

    I just can’t tell what the picture is. Watch it’ll be Bud’s favorite dog who died warning his family abou ta house fire as a kid and was the inspiration for “benji”.

  104. 105 Jason

    “J ignored meโ€ฆ”

    Not ignoring, just listening. That’s what people keep telling me I should do more of, you know, in between me telling them what they’re thinking.

  105. Yeah.. It’s a bit small. Here’s the full size pic.

    It’s actually a Pat Marvenko Smith. A depiction of one of my favorite scriptures – Rev 19:11.

    Haven’t worn tights since the days when I played in clubs – well that was technically Spandex.

  106. 107 Jason

    OK, I gotcha. That’s great! dijya gett that one from C?

    “well that was technically Spandex”

    I’m picturing “Winger”

  107. Sorry I have to say it…

    Winger ROCKS!!!

    I did have a mullet you know ๐Ÿ™‚

  108. 109 Jason

    loving Winger means never having to say you’re sorry

  109. Hahahahahahahaha!!!!!!!!!

  110. OK, I gotcha. Thatโ€™s great! dijya gett that one from C?

    Are you kidding?? He hates Revelation… you know, it’s just a metaphor…

    Iโ€™m picturing โ€œWingerโ€

    Close… The Bass part is right as is the hair. Music had a lot more testosterone though…

  111. 112 Jason

    “Are you kidding?? He hates Revelation.”

    I know, I was kidding

  112. One band was actually called Voodoo Meat Bucket. (I joined after they had already come up with a name… I convinced them to use VMB in the marketing)

  113. Talk about your bunny trail…

    What is the topic again?

  114. VMB? Ya, good call there buddy

  115. 116 Jason

    That’s a great name for a band.

    I played sax a couple of times with some friends from St. Cloud, Mn who’s band was called Ugly Stick, they put an umlaut over the g and the c.

  116. I think we have tapped this one for all it was worth.

  117. that doesn’t mean to stop…I was just commenting on Buddy’s Q

  118. It’s your wifes fault… she started with the tights…

  119. 120 Jason

    actually I think that randomness and mutation of this post is evidence FOR evolution

  120. Hahahahaha!!!!!

    Buddy she will never claim any responsibility for this one.

  121. Jason – yes, but if evolution new better, it wouldn’t have started it in the first place ๐Ÿ™‚

  122. J- nice way to bring it full circle. I like it.

    Anyway… Evolution….

    (iW.. your hit counts should be smokin’ today…)

  123. Buddy they are ridiculous today!

  124. 125 Jason

    “yes, but if evolution new better, it wouldnโ€™t have started it in the first place”

    Ya, like T with the tights.

  125. Oooooh – that’s a good one!

  126. You guys are awesome.

    Thanks for an extremely enjoyable afternoon!!!

  127. Hey, I’m the one who LIKES metaphors. It’s you guys who are laying in 7 years worth of nachos and DVDs. (Is it 7 years or 14 or 21?) Besides that picture of Buddy’s makes Jesus look like Bob Ross with a bad bleach job.

  128. As you may or may not know…

    The Northeast is getting creamed with another snowstorm….

    Took me three hours to drive 37 miles.

    Now I am so far behind in this thread that it will take me another 3 hours to catch up.

    Robert

  129. Robert that stinks…of course I would love to be in that. Take your time with all the posts. I’m not sure you actually missed anything…

  130. Jason said:

    “dearth of transitional forms”

    This betrays how absolutely IGNORANT you are about the state paleontology and evolutionary research.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evolution_of_the_horse

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evolution_of_cetaceans

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evolution_of_cetaceans

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_transitional_fossils

    Now regale me as to how I am wrong here yet again.

    Robert

  131. 132 Jason

    “Bob Ross with a bad bleach job”

    “when the Son of Man comes on fluffy white clouds…happy little clouds

  132. Nope, that’s fine.

    I take full blame!

    It’s been real folks!

    Peace out!

    Do tights cause chaffing on y’all?

  133. Hmm. That Bob Ross link became a link to an ad for hypnosis. Perhaps this is all a dream.

  134. Robert, normally I would just sit back and watch people bicker, but to put all that time and effort into trying proving Jason wrong just seems childish to me. I am not saying there has not been harshness both ways, but there comes a point where people are just out to get someone, and it seems like you are out to get him. Am I wrong in thinking this? Cause when someone does this, I stop hearing what they are saying and only see what they are doing.

    I appreciate the ability to talk through things, even when someone is right or wrong, but everyone needs some civility…

  135. I’m sure there will be something pointed out as to my inaccuracy here but our oldest (adopted girl) who is in college recently told us that the professors at her college will not accept any papers with Wikipedia references because anything can be edited on that site. So I thought for fun I would go in and mess with some numbers…sure enough, I went back and it had changed. What’s up with that?

  136. @inworship

    Consider the matter dropped.

    This is why I don’t like to get into this stuff.

    R

  137. Tam

    Wikipedia is a reference…you can use it as a starting point but I would never use information from it to write a paper. There are plenty of other places to go that will more than back up the evidence for transitional forms.

    Robert

  138. I understand that…but i see so many links to “prove” a point from Wikipedia and I just don’t think it’s a credible enough place to submit proof or an argument to someone else…unless of course it has been edited to fit ones stance. I’m not suggesting you or anyone here has done that…but how authentic is the info then once we get to it…I think that’s what the Professors were finding…

  139. 140 Jason

    Oh, that’s sad, I was really looking forward to the regaling.

    It’s your blog, you can prevent the regaling if you want to, prevent the regaling if you want to.

    Can I e-mail the regaling to you, Robert?

  140. 141 Jason

    “This is why I donโ€™t like to get into this stuff.”

    What? I think you don’t like getting into it neck deep, but stickin yer piggies in is OK.

  141. 142 Jason

    anybody else like a copy of the regaling?

  142. Goodbye Jason

  143. 144 Jason

    no regaling, I guess

  144. Woah, now that is a LOT of comments. I read that article yesterday and laughed. As many others, I had the vision of prehistoric pregnant woman trying to stay balanced while their arms wildly flailed about while trying to remain on their feet, but alas, crashing forward. And as you mentioned Brent, I had a very hard time believing with the statement โ€œ{scientists}found two physical differences in male and female backs that until now had gone unnoticed:….” Wha??
    And on the evolutionary note…although that is a debate that doesn’t interest me much because it doesn’t have any affect on my belief and relationship with God. BUT, if we have evolved, how in the world did we go from asexual beings to bisexual beings. Did one generation all of a sudden a fully functional sexual reproductive system in order to produce offspring? It seems so much easier to have faith in creationism than evolution IMHO.

  145. Jason, seriously!

    I just declared Robert a child and have to extend the same comment to you. I understand that this can all be personal in some way, but we choose to attack personally.

    Like I said, when someone begins acting childish, I forget what they are saying and I only see what they are doing.

    I appreciate all the comments i have heard today to understand all aspects of this conversation, but I can’t hear the comments when people are personally attacking others.

    can we please be civil? Of course I am not sure Robert will be back at this point. Maybe I can create a “nice” post so we all can talk again…sheesh…

  146. “Did one generation all of a sudden a fully functional sexual reproductive system in order to produce offspring?”

    Heck, it happened to me. ‘Course, the dang stuff has succumbed to planned obsolescence.

  147. Kristen thanks for stopping by and I think you are probably served to not read through everything seeing as how it would take you forever and probably not get you anywhere.

    My original intent of this post was not to debate evolution although T knew it would happen. Tt was to point out this specific article that seemed a terrible representation of evolution. It seemed very silly and goofy, but that was me. Of course now I see it was you as well ๐Ÿ™‚

    There are so many questions I have regarding evolution and science, but let’s all agree to try to see the others point of view as we line it up with our own beliefs. I am with you Kirsten. It would have little affect on my relationship with God, so i am not concerned of the learning opportunity.

  148. Jason

    You can email me what ever you want.

    Robert

  149. I figure I’ll ask God when I see him. My kids have lots of questions for God too, because I always tell them they’ll have to ask God when they get to heaven…pretty much for any question I cannot answer ๐Ÿ™‚ I’m okay with not having all the answers…it takes a huge burden off my shoulders!!

  150. Sheesh is my word. So is ouch. But you can use it.

  151. 152 Jason

    sorry, Brent

  152. 153 Jason

    sorry, everybody

  153. J –
    No need to apologize… all the ‘discussion’ doesn’t bother me.

    Actually, I quite enjoy it…. perhaps because for a time I was in your spot…

    Please don’t quit or go away…. and bring back your blog.

  154. Jason I appreciate the apology, but I concur with Buddy. I would hate to see you go. Please make yourself a regular. as well as Robert, good to have you around today.

    Christian, I assure you I will only use those words sparingly and with the utmost of responsibility ๐Ÿ™‚

  155. I say keep a “discussion” going here! It’s good for us – all of us. I believe we’re learning from each other and being stretched. That’s ok isn’t it? Don’t quit…either of you, R & J.

    And my word is…you guessed it

    “oopsies” ….(she says twirling her hair and batting her eyes) ๐Ÿ˜‰

  156. Ditto. Except for the ‘oopsies’ bit.

  157. IW just “larted”
    laugh and fart at the same time…
    it made him laugh…

    Thought you should know ๐Ÿ˜€

  158. C, it takes a secure man to say “oopsies”

    You know you want to ๐Ÿ˜‰

  159. Buddy? Did you hear that? It must be that same problem again. Got the name of any good GI doctors for Brent?

    Thanks, Tam. Actually a little bit more than we needed to know but thanks anyway. (Does he have no secrets?)

  160. Sounds like Brent’s the fellow who’s been having to say ‘oopsies’ these days. First the ‘problem’ with his pants that he shared with us over on my site and now this problem (which I think is linked to that other problem of his).

    Thank God he has you. Take good care of him for us, will ya?

  161. “(Does he have no secrets?)”

    Not with me around!

    There’s much more in that dept. I could share. But I’ll space it out and go easy on ya!

    See C, I’m NOT mean ๐Ÿ˜‰

  162. Mean? Did I say mean? I meant-uh…keen! That’s right. Keen. You sure are one peachy keen gal. OK? Right? Not mad at me now, are ya? ‘Course you aren’t. You are just the keenest. Super keen. Very, very keen. Not mean, no. Not mean, but keen. Real keen.

    Bye.

  163. She’s right C. I don’t think this whole blog thing will ever keep my errors(and bodily functions) a secret. Oh well, you all want honesty…you got it!

    Thanks Hun ๐Ÿ™‚

  164. No prob! I’m here all night!

    Want anymore…I’ve got a ton!

  165. C, just say oopsies. It would be so much easier.

  166. Larts are fine, sharts are embarrassing……:shock:

    Love you guys! ๐Ÿ˜€

  167. Hey my shock didn’t work, dang!

  168. Hmmm… IW knows sharts as well!

    But again…another time!

  169. Oh my, this one was an *interesting* read. ๐Ÿ˜‰ heehee

    Reading through it I got worried, nervous, laughed so hard I almost peed, was confused at one point (not hard to do) and giggled a lot.

    Gooooooodness. ๐Ÿ˜‰

  170. Sharts are terrible…yes.

    Brandy – I’m glad we could entertain you ๐Ÿ™‚

  171. Well these comments sure ran the gamut…from evolution to sharts…wow!

    lol, too funny

  172. Sorry Kristen, there as no stopping this beast ๐Ÿ™‚

  173. NO need for apologies…I live with a man/boy…I’m used to it. Plus now I have 2 new vocabulary words I can impress people with. Larts and sharts. My husband will surely appreciate this.

  174. Make sure if you use “larts” that you give credit to Tammy, cause she was pretty proud of coming up with that ๐Ÿ™‚

  175. Of course!

  176. I am the only one who knows who Homestar Runner is?

    Ok, you have to check him out:
    http://homestarrunner.com/

    Here’s a nice collection of holiday shorts:
    http://homestarrunner.com/dweenshorts.html
    Goes nicely with your ‘short’ post, iW…

  177. Buddy I just realized I deleted this on the wrong post…sorry.

    VERY FUNNY!

  178. So I’ve copied one of my earlier comments on this thread because I don’t think it was really addressed…of course I might have missed it in the midst of the mass chaos that took place yesterday! Woo-Hoo – what a party!

    Curious? If our lungs evolved for a fishโ€™s gills (that is a theory correct?) Then where are the discoveries of all the processes in between? A fossil is found and said to be something we evolved from from millions of years ago, but i never hear of any stages in between being found.

    Anyone?

  179. There aren’t any. There are a couple of fish that breath air and of course we have amphibeans but I think you’re right. Where are all the steps in between?

    Of course we are both being simplistic here and someone with sufficient scientific knowledge would have a field day with us and if we were speaking to a peer group at Harvard we would deserve the grief. But in essence it is that simple. Where are the fossils for the successive specie changes?

  180. WOW! I have had three children and although it was uncmfortable at the end..I probably would have smacked the doctor if he even suggested walking on all fours!

  181. There are so many holes in the evolution thing that it reall requires more faith to believe in it than in GOd…(thinking…mmmmm)

  182. Have a field day with us, as long as information is provided. I don’t know what the big deal would be to them from an honest and valid question. I’m just really curious that’s all. I’ve seen so much in the news all my life about discoveries of our beginnings from 10’s of thousands of years ago. So if they can find stuff from that far back they can surely find the in betweens that shouldn’t be quite as far back, if truly evolving…in my uneducated (in this arena) and humbled opinion. I’d be fascinated to see it. None of it would change my position in Christ. I believe He’s responsible for all of it anyway. Doesn’t mean I understand how, when or why though…but I’d love to get a glimpse ๐Ÿ˜‰

  183. Hope my tax money is not paying for this study either!

  184. I believe God can do what ever HE wants too..my problem with the whole thing is..”God Created…sea life..animals…man and female…and created them above all other life on the planet…sure HE could make things evolve..but I am fascinated in that HE spoke it and it happened. And only in creating Man did HE get his hands dirty and give it HIS own physical touch!

  185. ๐Ÿ˜ฏ
    my ancestors swung by there tails!
    I could almost believe that the way they act…well not all of them….I can’t believe in anything but the creation…In the beginning God… my brain isn’t big enough!

  186. been sitting here wondering where did everyone go…and forgot about the time difference! I will check back for you all later…

  187. You all are cracking me up!! LOL!! It took me longer to go thru the comments than to catch up on your blog! LOL!

  188. I am sure we will get a few more comments around here Darla, but we may have to wait till tomorrow.

    Rochelle – This was a long one, but VERY enjoyable ๐Ÿ™‚

  189. 190 Ed

    It’s a pretty cold day here in Connecticut with more snow and sleet in the forecast. I think I’ll just hibernate for the weekend and spend some time discussing the fascinating subject of evolution with my Christian friends. I think I am ready to evolve into a bear and hide under some warm blankets until spring. ๐Ÿ™‚

    What really interest me isn’t the debate about evolution itself but how the discussion is another example of how differently I seem to view the world from Christians.

    A Christian believes God provided mankind with a “perfect”(?) world in the garden of Eden. Man turned his back(?) on God and was cast out of Eden. Christians I think would have to believe that the quality(?) of man’s life has become worse. Man is flawed and can’t “evolve” through some force of natural but can only become “better” by accepting God and his teachings.

    I don’t believe a place like Eden existed. I don’t believe in heaven. I don’t believe in life after death. I am therefore motivated to believe that man can create a better world. I perhaps need to believe that man is evolving in oder to maintain my optimistic view of this world I live in.

    We both have found the thing that has helped us in our lives and motivates us to try and make the world a better place, flawed though it may be. ๐Ÿ™‚

  190. Ed I agree with you in regards to this world CAN become a better place. People can and do evolve. My belief would be that man is probably evolving more spiritually and intellectually than physically.

    There is where Christians will see it differently. We can do so much for this world and ourselves physically, but there is so much more than that for us. We first and foremost are living our lives spiritually. To accept into our lives God’s Spirit, His teachings and His way of life. This is definitely evolving. Paul in the Bible says that this act of evolving is, “being transformed by the renewing or our minds”.

    Whether one believe in an afterlife or heaven is not of issue when it comes to making this world a better place, but the motivation may be different(as you have mentioned). I don’t do this just because it is good, I do it because God says it is good. that can lead to a lot of discussion like, “What if God says it isn’t good”. but don’t think that is the discussion here. I beieve that the principles God has given us can both make this physical world a beautiful place as well as transforming our spiritual world to something that is beautiful as well.

    Back to your paragraph on the “Eden”. I can’t say whether this was a literal place. But one thing is that God was not cast out of Eden…Man was. There was once no divide between man and God, but when man disobeyed, there was sin and it created a divide and God cast them out of Eden. If you think of this story metaphorically, it can paint a picture that makes sense. God’s presence is perfection, we once lived in it. We destroyed that perfection and had to leave God’s presence. God then sent His Son Jesus who can become the “ingredient” that allows us to be seen as perfect in God’s eyes and we are now welcomed into his presence. It is a beautiful picture of grace and mercy.

    God intends…man messes up…God allows a new path…man either accepts or doesn’t.

  191. Or maybe it’s not that God ‘made’ us leave a perfect world, but that by choosing ourselves over him (and his Creation in the process) we have taken a ‘perfect’ world (Eden or as some environmentalists would see it; a world before the beginnings of technology) and messed it up.

    I think this optimistic view that some of us have could be summed up as the ‘Kingdom of God’. Jesus has shown us how things could be, if we all chose to follow his way towards a closer relationship with God (not just more religion). To be in harmony with God and his will can only benefit this earth and it’s inhabitants.

  192. I agree Christian, this is a better way to say and to see it.

  193. 194 Ed

    Brent, we can both agree that man “can” evolve intellectually. We also agree that man can make the world a better place. You look for spiritual improvement. I look for physical improvement. That is mutations in our DNA will result in the development of a better functioning brain that will result better function societies.

    My perception at this point is that I view religion and God as irrelevant to my life. You view the scientific theory of evolution as irrelevant to your life.

    Do you think man can create a world with little, or no, poverty and war without following God’s word?

    Is following God’s word essential to creating a world were people choice cooperation to solve disputes and not war?

  194. Ed I hope I haven’t made you upset. I just sensed maybe some frustration and I don’t mean to cause that.

    Ed, you are a good man. One of a few, in my opinion. I think there are nice people out there, but in general, people are only looking to take care of themselves in this world. The standards and morals you have adopted for your life have lead you to become this kind of person. edit (A good person) (this sounded confusing)

    I like to think that people are evolving and I do see it as valuable for me, but more of a part of what’s going on, not what’s driving it. Part of the process, not the process.

    Like I said earlier, I believe that our minds can be changed. I am not sure what that looks like on the “evolve” scale or if it would even qualify, but I see it as people have a chance to become better people. They learn and grow and feed themselves with information that changes their way of thinking and processing.

    For me, those changes have come to me by way of what I believe spiritually. I believe the information I have received through my relationship with God has been what has driven my mind to be changed. Could the information just spark a physical evolving of my brain? Sure, I have no problem believing that. In other words, I believe that the spiritual information put into my brain then allows my brain to physically change to be made different. My views and reactions and direction are shaped by how my brain now sees. not just because of the information, but because of how I have changed to accept that info. I think there’s good proof that says what we put in, comes out. We are what we think.

    When it comes to you and I evolving in this sense, I believe many of the traits you have come to accept into your life are right on. It makes you the man that you are, that I respect. I won’t say how you came to those ideas or where those ideas have come from. That would be disrespectful of me to claim I know how you’ve become you. I do know for me that who I am becoming is because of my commitment to my faith. I like to believe that we encourage the evolving process. It isn’t just changing behind the scenes and inadvertently changing us into something we do not desire to be.

    We come from different places and motivations, but I think we are very similar.

  195. I realize I did not directly answer your questions, let me do that.

    “Do you think man can create a world with little, or no, poverty and war without following Godโ€™s word?”

    I do believe man can do this. I do know that there are good and bad on both sides. there have been wonderful thing done socially by both religious and non religious. I believe their has to be moral guidelines for this to happen. Whether those morals are God made or man made is not the issue for me. Just that they are morals that will actually lead us to this resolve. My God’s way may not be the only way, but I believe it to be a moral structure that would allow for this to happen.

    “Is following Godโ€™s word essential to creating a world were people choice cooperation to solve disputes and not war?”

    No, but I believe following it will lead us to this kind of cooperation. Again, I’ve seen both sides do this well and do this poorly. When Christianity is lived out, people Love God and Love People. Unfortunately people of all sides and beliefs fail, so there will always be issues. I am not sure if it will get better or worse from where we are now, but I believe it could be better than where we are now.

  196. Also, let me clarify one thing in my first answer first paragraph. I did not mean to imply you are one that looks out for yourself.

    You ARE NOT one that looks out for yourself.

  197. I don’t know if I said it better, Brent. Just differently.

    Ed you don’t know me from Adam (heh, heh) but please understand that I am one of the last people to say that those who claim to have faith have any type of edge when it comes to moral behavior over those who are agnostic or atheist. But…when you ask if it is possible to improve the world without following God’s word I am going to have to say…no, it’s not.

    I think that what we call morality is actually the Word of God that is written on the hearts of all men and women. Unless we suffer from a psycho or physiological disorder that impairs our faculties we are all born with the ability to know right from wrong. Some see this as the result of countless generations of selective breeding and perhaps it is. I don’t see why God would not have his hand in this as well.

    But it would seem that the natural way of mankind, as it is with all animals (with anecdotal exceptions) would be to ‘look out for oneself’ but for some reason many of us do not allow this to shape our lives. For the many more who do place themselves before others, they are IMHO ignoring God’s word (whether they call it that or not). For Christians it is Jesus who has reminded us of the right ‘way’ to live. It is also the most abundant and peaceful way.

  198. 199 Ed

    Brent,

    I am not in way the least upset by anything you have said. The Internet is an imperfect way of communicating so it is hard to convey the “tone” of a question.

    Don’t take this personal ๐Ÿ™‚ , but I was a bit bored today. The sleet we are having prevented me from going to my nieces house. There is no football on TV. So I have been spending some time instead having an interesting discussion with one of my Christian friends.

    I ask questions to clarify another person’s opinion so I can understand them better. Actually I have a habit of driving some people crazy with questions. ๐Ÿ™‚

    We seem to be in agreement on more points than we disagree. This is one reason I started reading Christian blogs. Most of what I read in the news can give you the impression that Christians are crazy people out to save all the poor degenerate ๐Ÿ™‚ , atheist like me. By talking with real life Christians I have learned how much I actually have in common with you. Well maybe you are a little crazy. ๐Ÿ™‚

  199. Thanks for the clarification Ed and I truly have never felt like anyone asks me too many questions…go for it:)

    Ed, kind of inline with what Christian just said, I feel that we agree more than we disagree because the life you are living is, in my opinion, one that has taken on many of the moral structures of what Christianity speaks of. I understand that you have not chosen these morals based on whether they were Christian or not, but I do believe them to be Christian principles.

    I realize that many of things we will talk about(regarding my faith) will sound illogical. My faith has led me to places of faith in things that may not be considered logical. I will do my best to represent my faith in God as I know it and as I learn. Sometimes I will fail. But, what I do know is that the Christian faith is one that is welcome when it is actually practiced.

  200. By the way gang, we’ve reached 200 comments on this post.

    Christian does this deserve a sheesh ๐Ÿ™‚

  201. 202 Ed

    Christian and Brent you have both explained yourself very well. Thanks for clarifying your views.

    Are we humans born with a moral code is a good question. I don’t think we are. I can see why Christian would think so.

    I think the “laws” of nature apply to us humans just like any other animal. We do seem to a have a very complex brain compared to other animals. This may explain why we have evolved such complex societies.

    We now have a map of the human genome but as far as I can tell we are pretty clue less as to exactly how it works. There may be some coding that drives some of our altruistic behavior.

    I think “looking out for yourself” can be good model of behavior. It is in my own best interest to make as many friends as I can and as few enemies. It is in my own best interest to use cooperation to settle differences rather than violence. Feeling love and happiness will improve my health. Getting mad or doing things that make me depressed are unhealthy.

    When we do something just because we feel like it we may be taking an evolutionary step in our development. Whether this leads to our increased survival and happiness or to our extinction determines if this new experience will be passed on to future generations.

    I was going to write some more but my brain is starting to run down. Time for some good chocolate brain food. It’s been nice talking with you guys today.

  202. Oh yeah, absolutely.

    SHEESH!

  203. WOW over 200 comments! That may even classify you a “Rock Star”! Standing on the Rock of course ๐Ÿ˜‰

  204. Hello All

    Tam you had asked where or what was the transitional form between fish and amphibians .

    Well, the current thinking is that amphibians evolved from fish.

    Using that reasoning scientists surmised that an animal somewhat between the two SHOULD have existed 360 million years ago. So a group of research scientists went to the frozen wastes of Canada to search in strata whose age conformed to the target age they were looking for.

    Lo and behold they found this:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tiktaalik

    This is animal that bears traits of fish and amphibian.

    Now I grant you there are NO certainties in this work.

    The beauty of this work is that Scientists using evolutionary predicted that they would find an animal that bore these traits in rocks of this particular age.

    They looked and they found it.

    Now, of course, you have to accept that isochronous dating of rocks is valid and accurate. I do.

    Take it for what it is.

    Robert

  205. Hey Robert, good to see you back.

    Question…

    Big Bang theory amd the Evolution theory are two different things, correct?

    The reason I am asking is that when we read about these missing links, we often don’t think of evolution, but Big Bang. Because we see humans evolving from that fish as well. Am I making sense?

    In your ubderstanding, how do we seperate the 2 ideas, or do we?

  206. Gee , Brent. I almost never link Big Bang with Evolution. I know a lot of atheists insist that they are related but I think the Big Bang theory is pretty ‘biblical’ .If you take into account the time dilation properties that would take place during such an enormous expansion of space in such a short burst then it works out to be about 6 cosmic ‘days’ in which the universe became what we now it to be today. There’s this Israeli scientist, a devout Jew, who has written a couple of books on this. They are very good. This is his website: http://www.geraldschroeder.com/age.html It’s worth checking out.

  207. Evolution and The Big Bang are two ENTIRELY different things.

    The big bang is an inference drawn from the fact that all galaxies in the universe seem to be running away from each other…i.e. space is EXPANDING.

    The big bang says nothing about evolution and vice versa.

    Also it is important to note that Evolution says NOTHING about where life came from. All evolution speaks to is how the current life forms on earth came to be.

    The origin chemistry of life…that’s still a BIG mystery!

    Robert

  208. Now if you don’t mind I going to go and watch my beloved Patriots go to 14-0!

    *evil grin*

    R

  209. Robert, thanks. This was my assumption, but I want to understand correctly as we all talk.

  210. Ha ha…

    I am holding out for my Cowboys ๐Ÿ™‚

  211. Robert, I never could put my finger on it about you. There’s just always been something I like. Then I come home and read it here…

    You’re a Patriots Fan!

    I love ya man!!!!

  212. Darla – Rock Star?!?!

    ๐Ÿ™‚

  213. Tam

    Born and raised a New Englander what else would I be!?

    Oh and my son…..is name is Vincenzo LOMBARDI!!!

    Too bad his Mom will NEVER let him play football.

    ๐Ÿ˜‰

    R

  214. Christian, i will check that link out. Also, based on what Robert said, I have a lot of thoughts, but one in particular.

    I hear Christian and non-Christian all the time putting the two together. We have been given bad info(imagine that).

    ask yourselves, why do people fight against the belief of evolution or the big bang theory? Why do people(mostly Christians) not want these theories taught to their students in school?

    Because they believe that it is being heralded as THE way life began. This is not correct info, because(Robert correct me if I am wrong) these theories do not answer that question.

    Now, for some reason we have been told or have come to understand/believe that these two may connect with each other and that these theories want to answer that question. How have we come to this info? Is it just a lot of hype and little info? Or is it that some people are actually being incorrectly taught this? I would assume that the first is probably more accurate, but the second may be true and would make me very concerned.

    Any thoughts here?

  215. Congrats Robert. Looks like my Cowboys were not as fortunate…

  216. InWorship

    You are on the right track!

    The Big Bang is a cosmological model of where the universe came from.

    The theory says that all matter and energy in the universe started at a singularity, an unimaginably small and dense point.

    Here’s the thing the Big Bang model says NOTHING, NIL, NADA about WHERE that singularity came from. Draw whatever inference you will from that! ๐Ÿ™‚

    Now it is also conjectured that it wasn’t just matter & energy that came from that point. Space and Time itself came from that point! ๐Ÿ˜ฎ

    So as Stephen Hawking once said: “to ask what happened BEFORE the Big Bang is a meaningless question”, because there was no BEFORE!!!

    Time itself is part of the fabric of the universe.

    Another interesting tid-bit … Einsteins General Theory of Relativity predicted that the Universe must either be expanding or contracting. Albert himself was uncomfortable with this disquieting aspect of his theory so he invented a constant that held the Universe static. (Talk about a scientist trying to bend theory to support his personal view)

    Anyhow along came Edwin Hubble (the guy the telescope is named after) in the 1920’s. He made a bunch of observations that for some reason showed that all distant galaxies were running away from us!!

    Hubble’s observations confirmed what Einsteins theory predicted!

    Einstein later said that the cosmological constant he added to his theory was the biggest blunder of his career.

    If this really interests you…pick up Stephen Hawking’s “A Brief History of the Universe” It was a huge bestseller in the late 80’s and for good reason. It’s still a good primer on cosmology. And I think you’ll find that it’s not at all threatening to the Christian world view unless you are completely hardcore literalistic.

    Robert

  217. Thanks for great info Robert. I will pick back up tomorrow as thoughts contimue to arise. I’ve been at church since 7AM and just got home after being out to a movie with the family…it’s time for Slippers, Sunday night football with my boy and a good beer.

    Talk to you guys tomorrow ๐Ÿ™‚

  218. youโ€™ll find that itโ€™s not at all threatening to the Christian world view

    I never could see why this was considered threatening to some Christians but I don’t think the majority (Roman Catholic and mainline protestant) are too worried about it. If anything cosmology points us to new wonders.

  219. Christian said:

    If anything cosmology points us to new wonders.

    Perfectly illustrates my point!

    Robert

  220. Go Skins!!

    If anything cosmology points us to new wonders.

    Agreed, Scripture does this for me as well.

    Ed,
    Thought I’d comment onyou questions.. good ones (hope I’m not too late)

    Do you think man can create a world with little, or no, poverty and war without following Godโ€™s word?

    Absolutely impossible. Every attempt man has ever made has ended in disaster. As a matter of fact, whenever man tries to manipulate this world it is either motivated by or results in greed or hatred. Most of the greatest developments in technology have been driven by a motivation to find a better way to do war.

    Man began to learn about things on an atomic level… what happened? Clean renewable power? no, Hiroshima.

    etc, etc etc… It is not possible for man to escape his own, pride, greed and ambition without God.

    Look at what is happening with the whole Green movement… I shudder to think what we will do with the advancements in geneteic engineering…

    Is following Godโ€™s word essential to creating a world were people choice cooperation to solve disputes and not war?

    No question. It can happen no other way.

  221. I agree with Buddy, (except about the Skins. so sad). He is on the money here but….unfortunately too many times religion has forgotten to follow God in their attempts to ‘fix’ things. So I can see where someone like Robert might be having a hard time seeing the difference. I know I have.

  222. Well, I’ve been out of the loop a bit this week, but I’ve really enjoyed the discussion that’s gone on here. I am sure we could probably discuss this for quite some time.

    Does anyone have any other questions or thoughts they want to throw out?

  223. Why? Trying to get your comments to 300!!!

    Selfish turd!

  224. You are mean ๐Ÿ™‚

  225. only on wednesdays….and thursdays

  226. Hey, that sounds interesting.


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